Why don’t Mormons demand more from their prophets?

[Fence Sitter]

Ask not what your prophet can do for you, ask what you can do for your prophet.

[Gadianton]

You can't demand much from a prophet because prophets work top-down. If you demand something from a prophet then you're in the wrong automatically. So once you've decided someone is a prophet, you've shot yourself in the foot with an elephant gun, giving the prophet complete control over everything in your life. That's why the first thing the Church does is get you to believe it's led by a prophet, because then the prophet is generous as hell for letting you have 90% of your income.

That's why you should be discriminating and not easily impressed when appraising somebody claiming to be a prophet. But then, again, the Church works really hard to convince you it's easy to determine somebody is a prophet. Just ask God! KISS (keep it simple stupid) -- don't overcomplicate it! If you read the Book of Mormon and felt the least bit positive, bam, how could it be anything but true? It's all about getting this tiny domino to fall that guarantees a prophet is in charge, thereby binding you to immediate life servitude.

Look at poor Wade. He read Alma 32 and the slightest positive feeling trapped him forever as a servant to a hedge fund.

[MG 2.0]

You can't demand much from a prophet because prophets work top-down. If you demand something from a prophet then you're in the wrong automatically. So once you've decided someone is a prophet, you've shot yourself in the foot with an elephant gun, giving the prophet complete control over everything in your life. That's why the first thing the Church does is get you to believe it's led by a prophet, because then the prophet is generous as hell for letting you have 90% of your income.

That's why you should be discriminating and not easily impressed when appraising somebody claiming to be a prophet. But then, again, the Church works really hard to convince you it's easy to determine somebody is a prophet. Just ask God! KISS (keep it simple stupid) -- don't overcomplicate it! If you read the Book of Mormon and felt the least bit positive, bam, how could it be anything but true? It's all about getting this tiny domino to fall that guarantees a prophet is in charge, thereby binding you to immediate life servitude.

Look at poor Wade. He read Alma 32 and the slightest positive feeling trapped him forever as a servant to a hedge fund.

If you don’t mind me asking, what was your personal conversion story/process back in the day? Approximately what age were you when you determined that your conversion was a fluke?

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

You can't demand much from a prophet because prophets work top-down. If you demand something from a prophet then you're in the wrong automatically. So once you've decided someone is a prophet, you've shot yourself in the foot with an elephant gun, giving the prophet complete control over everything in your life. That's why the first thing the Church does is get you to believe it's led by a prophet, because then the prophet is generous as hell for letting you have 90% of your income.

That's why you should be discriminating and not easily impressed when appraising somebody claiming to be a prophet. But then, again, the Church works really hard to convince you it's easy to determine somebody is a prophet. Just ask God! KISS (keep it simple stupid) -- don't overcomplicate it! If you read the Book of Mormon and felt the least bit positive, bam, how could it be anything but true? It's all about getting this tiny domino to fall that guarantees a prophet is in charge, thereby binding you to immediate life servitude.

Look at poor Wade. He read Alma 32 and the slightest positive feeling trapped him forever as a servant to a hedge fund.

If you don’t mind me asking, what was your personal conversion story/process back in the day? Approximately what age were you when you determined that your conversion was a fluke?

Regards,
MG

If you don’t mind me asking, how does belonging to a church that literally protects child rapists and bullies their victims not make you literally Satanic?

But in the 32 years that I have been a prosecutor, I have never once seen a victim be spoken for by their bishop or church leader. Not once. And many times, the victim will be asked to leave the ward because they're being too disruptive. I've had teenage girls asked not to attend their own high school anymore because they're causing too much of an uproar, you know, by reporting a sexual assault or a violent incident. And so there is very much a sort of undercurrent in this whole problem of protecting the image of the church as well.

More here:

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/01/31 ... lds-church

Denying children the atonement. Protecting child rapists. This is the most anti-Christ “church” on the planet.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

what was your personal conversion story/process back in the day? Approximately what age were you when you determined that your conversion was a fluke?

Like you, I was born into the Church. My parents were ward anchors, on anybody's top 5 family list for faithfulness. I was never "converted" as I grew up just assuming it was true. I think I was as TBM as anyone, even though I never thought I had the powerful conversion experience Chapel Mormons believe in. Most people didn't claim such experiences and those who did I didn't necessarily believe; chasing that testimony is part of the mythos. Drug addicts have similar myths, I'm sure. I tried several angles to find a way to be passionate about the Church but nothing really worked. The family expectation is without a doubt the dominant factor that kept me going, including mission, but by early twenties I was pretty well done and slipped through the cracks once I was living on my own paycheck.

Here's what you've got to face, MG. There are offensive and defensive versions of the gospel. When you run out of offense and play only defense, you've got to wonder what the point of believing is. I often see apologists in full defensive posture. Given x, y, z, x1, y1, z1, x2, y2... and on for a long time, they can still believe. I really don't see the point of putting time, money, and effort into religion unless the offense is 90% of the game. What does Mormonism offer that is so powerful that you just can't get it anywhere else? As an example, when I was young, I thought the 3 degrees of glory made far more sense than an absolute heaven and hell. I still do. But, at the end of the day, it's like acknowledging underwear gnomes are neither entirely good or bad, but there are gradations of gnome alignment. If you really want to believe in living forever as a human in gradations of goodness, then it's a pretty intuitive idea that many people can come up with on their own, it doesn't require a prophet. The offensive game fell apart for me as there are much better big ideas elsewhere, and even the best version of the Mormon game, which aren't that great, have too many logical holes.

[MG 2.0]

what was your personal conversion story/process back in the day? Approximately what age were you when you determined that your conversion was a fluke?

Like you, I was born into the Church. My parents were ward anchors, on anybody's top 5 family list for faithfulness. I was never "converted" as I grew up just assuming it was true. I think I was as TBM as anyone, even though I never thought I had the powerful conversion experience Chapel Mormons believe in. Most people didn't claim such experiences and those who did I didn't necessarily believe; chasing that testimony is part of the mythos. Drug addicts have similar myths, I'm sure. I tried several angles to find a way to be passionate about the Church but nothing really worked. The family expectation is without a doubt the dominant factor that kept me going, including mission, but by early twenties I was pretty well done and slipped through the cracks once I was living on my own paycheck.

Here's what you've got to face, MG. There are offensive and defensive versions of the gospel. When you run out of offense and play only defense, you've got to wonder what the point of believing is. I often see apologists in full defensive posture. Given x, y, z, x1, y1, z1, x2, y2... and on for a long time, they can still believe. I really don't see the point of putting time, money, and effort into religion unless the offense is 90% of the game. What does Mormonism offer that is so powerful that you just can't get it anywhere else? As an example, when I was young, I thought the 3 degrees of glory made far more sense than an absolute heaven and hell. I still do. But, at the end of the day, it's like acknowledging underwear gnomes are neither entirely good or bad, but there are gradations of gnome alignment. If you really want to believe in living forever as a human in gradations of goodness, then it's a pretty intuitive idea that many people can come up with on their own, it doesn't require a prophet. The offensive game fell apart for me as there are much better big ideas elsewhere, and even the best version of the Mormon game, which aren't that great, have too many logical holes.

Thank you for that.

Do you see any meaning/purpose in the cosmos/universe beyond what we humans create within our minds? An external consciousness/intelligence beyond our own?

If so, how would you describe it?

Regards,
MG

[doubtingthomas]

Do you see any meaning/purpose in the cosmos/universe beyond what we humans create within our minds? An external consciousness/intelligence beyond our own?

Have you felt the power of the Rabbit's foot?

[Gadianton]

Whether there is purpose to the universe is above my paygrade. I don't have a clue.

However, if there is meaning and purpose, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your own personal happiness and glory.

I think that human culture is pretty ridiculous, and I can't fathom that if there is purpose to the universe, that it is for humans and human culture to multiply endlessly -- the point of everything is for folks like you and DCP to live eternally and have the lives and relationships with other humans that you have now but in a "more perfect state" as Joseph taught. I see the eternal exaltation and endless perpetuity of humans as the purpose of the universe as near zero in probability, because it's hard to imagine a supreme being would be such an utter moron to make that the great purpose.

Animals don't realize that according to the gospel, while they are created to have joy in their sphere of creation, that they are also created for the use of man. A cow doesn't realize that it fulfills God's plan by being slaughtered and turned into a thousand hamburgers for humans. The point is: Just because a cow has purpose in God's plan, doesn't make things any better for the cow than if there were no God with a purpose. In fact, a world without a purpose might be better for the cow. Same for us. Just because an infinite mind created us with a purpose doesn't mean the purpose aligns with our own well-being.

[mcjathan]

Ask not what your prophet can do for you, ask what you can do for your prophet.

[Dr Moore]

Animals don't realize that according to the gospel, while they are created to have joy in their sphere of creation, that they are also created for the use of man. A cow doesn't realize that it fulfills God's plan by being slaughtered and turned into a thousand hamburgers for humans. The point is: Just because a cow has purpose in God's plan, doesn't make things any better for the cow than if there were no God with a purpose. In fact, a world without a purpose might be better for the cow. Same for us. Just because an infinite mind created us with a purpose doesn't mean the purpose aligns with our own well-being.

Dean, this makes me wonder about another set of edge cases.

Let’s say you were 62 years old when Joseph was running his money digging scams. You paid him to be on one of those digs, saw him use the rock, got nothing and all of that. You realize too late what a scam it is. You go away pretty upset, but too old and tired to sue. You’re a first hand witness that Joseph Smith, Jr. is a con artist. And then, in November 1829 you die. You go to the spirit world, where eager missionaries teach you about the restoration of Jesus’s one true church and priesthood. This was occasioned through the most miraculous revelation of the Book of Mormon by one Joseph Smith, Jr, through the very same rock you personally witnessed in use scamming you. You’re literally damned if you do and damned if you don’t.