Loving the Mormons, hating their church

[Kishkumen]

This is an absurd thing to believe.

I’m sure there are some people who live in Florida who don’t agree with Ron DeSantis and all of the terrible policies he is putting in place. I don’t think all Floridians are hardline right-wingers just because they live there and don’t move.

I should hope not! In any case, no one votes for the leaders of the LDS Church, and the LDS Church is what you might call a voluntary association. To my knowledge, no one thinks of the state they reside in as a voluntary association.

[dastardly stem]

I'm not sure I understand the context of this quote so may be missing something but I'd say the faithful Mormon (i'll assume its a male for convenience here) is mostly correct here. People shouldn't conclude a Mormon is racist without hearing them out. And Mormons shouldn't be lumped in together with each other per their views. Individuals deserve to be heard out. So it may be this faithful Mormon was listened to and then people concluded his views are problematic, or they simply threw hate and vitriol at him before they heard him out. While its true many believers of many stripes over-react and take criticisms of their views as personal assaults...its also true that believers tend to get lumped together with terrible views that other believers hold but they also condemn.

Its fair to give people their say and try to understand their points in discussion.

Individuals are complex entities. We all simply are. We can be very critically minded in many ways yet believe silly things when it comes to religion and fail critical analysis. But none of us are giving everything in our lives or every proposition thorough views...and when we find a niche and live an appropriate life, as we see it, then what more do we expect? But often internet discussion doesn't suffer fools. If you don't really have good arguments for your beliefs, which I say is typical for those in religion, then it's not easy to show up and brashly claim your beliefs are justified particularly when you've already failed to listen to the critical perspectives.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm not sure I understand the context of this quote so may be missing something but I'd say the faithful Mormon (i'll assume its a male for convenience here) is mostly correct here. People shouldn't conclude a Mormon is racist without hearing them out. And Mormons shouldn't be lumped in together with each other per their views. Individuals deserve to be heard out. So it may be this faithful Mormon was listened to and then people concluded his views are problematic, or they simply threw hate and vitriol at him before they heard him out. While its true many believers of many stripes over-react and take criticisms of their views as personal assaults...its also true that believers tend to get lumped together with terrible views that other believers hold but they also condemn.

Its fair to give people their say and try to understand their points in discussion.

Individuals are complex entities. We all simply are. We can be very critically minded in many ways yet believe silly things when it comes to religion and fail critical analysis. But none of us are giving everything in our lives or every proposition thorough views...and when we find a niche and live an appropriate life, as we see it, then what more do we expect? But often internet discussion doesn't suffer fools. If you don't really have good arguments for your beliefs, which I say is typical for those in religion, then it's not easy to show up and brashly claim your beliefs are justified particularly when you've already failed to listen to the critical perspectives.

If you belong to an organization, send money to it, and mAkE cOvEnAnTs with it, are you not supporting its doctrines, policies, and practices? In the Mormon cult they:

* lists all the heinous crap they’ve done throughout their history to present day *

Can a card carrying Marxist claim they’re not a Trotskyite? Sure. Can a 1930’s fascist state they preferred American fascism over Italian fascism? Can democratic socialist hate Democrats as much as they hate Republicans? Of course.

Do any of their individual preferences change the fact that they’re operating within the framework of their ideology? Absolutely not. They’re still communists, fascists, and socialists. It’s a fairly safe bet a communist isn’t going to hold laissez faire free market capital principles in their heart, unless they’re a 5th columnist.

When people scold a Mormon it’s not because they dislike a godly person, whatever the “F” that means. They’re scolding them for choosing to associate with a cult that has done all the heinous crap they’ve done throughout their history through present day. They’re choosing to identify with that, whether or not they believe in the particulars. Asking us to keep an open mind and to accept the word of people who’s culture has dishonesty baked into it, is a big and unnecessary ask. People simply reject the lies Mormons tell them in order to make Mormonism more palatable, which itself is a falsehood.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

In that case, DocCam, we are all screwed in the US, since we live in the single most effectively exploitative empire the world has ever known. Let's just throw in the towel because we could be leaving this horrible place to find . . . . .

Oh, damn, I think the whole earth is tainted with the shortcomings of humanity.

There is always room for people who do their best in the circumstances they find themselves in. Kudos to them. I don't want to pile on them too judgmentally. I am sure I am full of hypocrisy and contradictions that others can call out.

Hell, they do all the time.

[dastardly stem]

I don't think we get ourselves or others anywhere if we act as if all things associated with an individual is the responsibility of that individual. We'd all be worth condemning and shouting out if that's what we ought to do. As Kish suggests, I'm an American. Maybe I too ought to be cancelled in whatever sense we wish to shut out a Mormon perspective. A socialist has a view that's worth hearing out as much as a capitalist. Condemning people for all their associations feels endlessly and unproductively restrictive. Religion plays a bit like national associations. We're often part of religion because of where we come from and who gave it to us. We're heavily tied in before we're grown for many reasons not related to doctrine, per se. That may lead to many in a religion wanting to see change and sticking it out in hopes they can help foster it. I don't begrudge people that space, even in Mormonism. And most of Mormonism crap comes from Christianity. It was naturally seeded to Mormonism. That doesn't mean, at all, that Mormon perspectives aren't worth criticism.

The larger take on this is, whenever someone comes along and wishes to engage in any given topic, I think it's worth giving them their say. Even if it's a poor perspective, that comes out and most often becomes obvious to anyone whose looked into the matter. And fi we're kind and patient, as it were, helpful and thoughtful, then there is a greater possibility that the poor perspective gets dropped. if dukes go up immediately and we aim to chase out the ignorant with names and hostility, we all lose.

But, perhaps even more importantly to me, if someone disagrees with me I stand to gain if they can make a compelling case for their position. Even though I don't think Mormonism is worth considering beyond all that I've given it I think it's important to give any defender the space in that I might actually find something they say convincing and worth considering. When I put a wall up and shut people out because they come from another perspective, I'm not only refusing myself possible growth, I'm also missing out on learning people and perspective.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

In that case, DocCam, we are all screwed in the US, since we live in the single most effectively exploitative empire the world has ever known. Let's just throw in the towel because we could be leaving this horrible place to find . . . . .

Oh, damn, I think the whole earth is tainted with the shortcomings of humanity.

There is always room for people who do their best in the circumstances they find themselves in. Kudos to them. I don't want to pile on them too judgmentally. I am sure I am full of hypocrisy and contradictions that others can call out.

Hell, they do all the time.

Living under a government system is different than belonging to a political party or some other opt-in organization. I was just trying to provide some examples I thought might be useful.

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I don't think we get ourselves or others anywhere if we act as if all things associated with an individual is the responsibility of that individual.

No one suggested otherwise. The responsibility of the individual lies with the individual with regard to voluntary association. Imma Godwin for sec - Hitler had some qualities that resonated with a good portion of the German people, hence his popularity. He was an artist, loved dogs, had a girlfriend, liked the outdoors, was apparently a good public speaker, and could ingest an amount of meth that’d kill a horse. You know. Just German things.

But he was a Nazi. And he and his party did horrific crap. Are we really going to cut a Nazi a break because, like Hitler, they’re a vegetarian, don’t steal from their neighbor, and treat their pets well?

C’mon.

I’m not sorry to say if you’re a Mormon then you institutionally support * insert heinous crap the Mormon cult has done from the beginning through the present here *. You, individually, may support the ERA, marriage equality, financial transparency and Christian charity, etc. But if you lend support to your cult that actively works against your ethos and that of the broader general population, then what are you? An idiot? Hypocrite? A 5th columnist? Because you’re certainly not uninformed.

- Doc

[Rivendale]

In that case, DocCam, we are all screwed in the US, since we live in the single most effectively exploitative empire the world has ever known. Let's just throw in the towel because we could be leaving this horrible place to find . . . . .

Oh, damn, I think the whole earth is tainted with the shortcomings of humanity.

There is always room for people who do their best in the circumstances they find themselves in. Kudos to them. I don't want to pile on them too judgmentally. I am sure I am full of hypocrisy and contradictions that others can call out.

Hell, they do all the time.

Living under a government system is different than belonging to a political party or some other opt-in organization. I was just trying to provide some examples I thought might be useful.

- Doc

Agree. Governments generally don't punish thought crimes. The Mormon church promotes a self loathing system that claims it has the only cure for. It makes claims about reality that I would argue adheres to a person's identity 24 hours a day. It perpetuates a white patriarchal view of society while simultaneously claiming everyone is equal.

[dastardly stem]

I don't think we get ourselves or others anywhere if we act as if all things associated with an individual is the responsibility of that individual.

No one suggested otherwise. The responsibility of the individual lies with the individual with regard to voluntary association. Imma Godwin for sec - Hitler had some qualities that resonated with a good portion of the German people, hence his popularity. He was an artist, loved dogs, had a girlfriend, liked the outdoors, was apparently a good public speaker, and could ingest an amount of meth that’d kill a horse. You know. Just German things.

But he was a Nazi. And he and his party did horrific crap. Are we really going to cut a Nazi a break because, like Hitler, they’re a vegetarian, don’t steal from their neighbor, and treat their pets well?

C’mon.

I’m not sorry to say if you’re a Mormon then you institutionally support * insert heinous crap the Mormon cult has done from the beginning through the present here *. You, individually, may support the ERA, marriage equality, financial transparency and Christian charity, etc. But if you lend support to your cult that actively works against your ethos and that of the broader general population, then what are you? An idiot? Hypocrite? A 5th columnist? Because you’re certainly not uninformed.

- Doc

I don't know that I'd disagree a ton with what you've said. I simply don't think individuals need be treated as if they hold all positions the same as everyone else in the group. We ought to hear individuals out. You present a good challenge to any member and getting their perspective would be of interest to me. Maybe they have ideas that I have not thought of or heard before. It may be a slim chance but I'd hate to shut people out before giving them that chance. But honestly I want to see people attempt to be reasonable. Once they find value in doing so, i think that's the best way for all of us to learn and grow with each other. We have a common basis from which to move.

Some time back MG 2.0 suggested he doesn't see a purpose in being reasonable, suggesting God is greater than reason so we can't reason our way to him, or some such stuff. once that perspective is given there's no reasoning to be done. I've kept my interaction with him to a minimum because he has already suggested he vehemently opposes the only common ground we could possibly have in a discussion. But, even then, i hold out hope for him. i''m glad he's around. i don't expect he'll just start trying to be reasonable, at some point. But he may.

[dastardly stem]

Living under a government system is different than belonging to a political party or some other opt-in organization. I was just trying to provide some examples I thought might be useful.

- Doc

Agree. Governments generally don't punish thought crimes. The Mormon church promotes a self loathing system that claims it has the only cure for. It makes claims about reality that I would argue adheres to a person's identity 24 hours a day. It perpetuates a white patriarchal view of society while simultaneously claiming everyone is equal.

All religion, particularly in the west, does that.