Vogel responds to Brian Hales

[MG 2.0]

I think it’s important to look at the bigger picture.

Regards,
MG

Good point. This presentation by Chris Smith can be helpful in understanding the bigger picture.

https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads ... th2015.mp3

The more the merrier.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I suppose I would have to be convinced as to why I’d want to spend a chunk of change to buy this book and support the author.

Dan Vogel made the rookie mistake…

Folks like Dan Vogel don’t make rookie mistakes.

Regards,
MG

[canpakes]

… I’ve thought about the ‘charismatic Joseph Smith’. His magnetic appeal. Many folks have it. Many religious/political figures have had it.

But that’s not always enough to carry something over the long haul.

Ergo, Islam is ‘true’.

[MG 2.0]

… I’ve thought about the ‘charismatic Joseph Smith’. His magnetic appeal. Many folks have it. Many religious/political figures have had it.

But that’s not always enough to carry something over the long haul.

Ergo, Islam is ‘true’.

You make a good point.

I suppose what I’m referring to is the fact that Joseph’s charismatic persona which he may have exhibited as he attracted followers in his day may not be enough to keep active believers in the church which he founded (the evidence seems to demonstrate that this is so).

I refer, again, back to the fantastical nature of many of the things that were part and parcel of the restoration. Seer stones, angels, plates, heavenly visions, modern scripture, and the like.

But yes, other religions have had their beginnings through means of a charismatic individual.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Dan Vogel made the rookie mistake…

Folks like Dan Vogel don’t make rookie mistakes.

Regards,
MG

The joke was contained in the part you cut off.

[MG 2.0]

Folks like Dan Vogel don’t make rookie mistakes.

Regards,
MG

The joke was contained in the part you cut off.

Yeah, funny.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

There's a form of survivors bias in viewing the church as having some special quality beyond what one observes in other communities with charismatic leaders. I'd argue the church's survival out of its organizational infancy is due to a combination of factors, of which Smith having the right person come along whose abilities proved essential being critical.

Organizations/cultural movements are subject to survival pressures akin to species being subject to environmental pressures that have similar evolutionary effects. In the case of organizations those pressures change much more quickly, requiring much greater adaptive agility for new organizations to grow to a size they can weather shocks.

In the case of Mormonism, the Book of Mormon project was dead in the water until Cowdery arrived. Without Cowdery and the Whitmer family there would have been no Mormon church, period.

But without the arrival of Sidney Rigdon the church wouldn't have survived, either. Smith dropped Cowdery as his right hand for Rigdon and the organization divided geographically and, in part, in leadership.

That split proved fortuitous when the Smith/Rigdon group in Kirkland imploded, allowing Smith/Rigdon to oust the Cowdery/Whitmer leadership of the other, more matured branch and assume sole leadership to see the organization survive.

Some would see Gods hand in that. I see history.

[Morley]

Ergo, Islam is ‘true’.

You make a good point.

I suppose what I’m referring to is the fact that Joseph’s charismatic persona which he may have exhibited as he attracted followers in his day may not be enough to keep active believers in the church which he founded (the evidence seems to demonstrate that this is so).

I refer, again, back to the fantastical nature of many of the things that were part and parcel of the restoration. Seer stones, angels, plates, heavenly visions, modern scripture, and the like.

Ergo, Islam is ‘true’.

[MG 2.0]

Ergo, Islam is ‘true’.

You make a good point.

I suppose what I’m referring to is the fact that Joseph’s charismatic persona which he may have exhibited as he attracted followers in his day may not be enough to keep active believers in the church which he founded (the evidence seems to demonstrate that this is so).

I refer, again, back to the fantastical nature of many of the things that were part and parcel of the restoration. Seer stones, angels, plates, heavenly visions, modern scripture, and the like.

Ergo, Islam is ‘true’.

And the CofJCofLDS is truer. Truth and truths reside along a spectrum. That this truth is ‘true’ doesn’t in any way negate truth found in any one religion and/or no religion at all.

It’s like the old Arby’s commercial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOYcSamCtu0

Different is good. Islam is good/true. The restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is good/truer. A spectrum or continuum of truth.

President Hinckley said to those of other faiths, “You bring all the good that you have and let us see if we can add to it.”

But if those of other faiths choose not to look at the truths of the LDS Church that doesn’t in any way negate the truth/light that they choose to live by.

Ergo, Islam is true.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

And the next round!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=157944