Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[MG 2.0]

It’s up to drumdude.

Regards,
MG

I am appreciative of his willingness to engage with my questions…up to a point.

But we all do that…

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

It’s up to drumdude.

Regards,
MG

I am appreciative of his willingness to engage with my questions…up to a point.

But we all do that…

Regards,
MG

Let’s make a dedicated thread for it so we can discuss in more detail.

[MG 2.0]

I am appreciative of his willingness to engage with my questions…up to a point.

But we all do that…

Regards,
MG

Let’s make a dedicated thread for it so we can discuss in more detail.

Sounds good.

Regards,
MG

Done! -cp-

[MG 2.0]

I am appreciative of his willingness to engage with my questions…up to a point.

But we all do that…

Regards,
MG

Let’s make a dedicated thread for it so we can discuss in more detail.

Thanks canpakes for keeping an eye on things.

drumdude? Ball’s in your court.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...It comes back to truth(s) being located/found along a spectrum. Many of those truths may well lead towards salvation. Some of those truths, however, may lead toward exaltation.

And it’s different strokes for different folks....

You mention that baptism into the church comes at a cost. Yes, it does. But sacrifice brings forth blessings. And those blessings are unique to those that walk in obedience and according to the covenants made in within the gospel framework.

That’s not for everyone...

So, the LDS position, in your opinion mg, is that while the Atonement may provide salvation for all, only Mormons who have ordinances done in the LDS temple and are obedient to specific Mormon covenants are eligible for "exaltation"?

[drumdude]

I’m still not sure I understand how you can say that salvation and eternal life precede learning truth. That seems backwards.

Regards,
MG

I’m thinking specifically of truth learned in this life.

The example I’ll use is the person who died years ago without ever hearing about Mormonism. He was also baptized for the dead years ago and is now saved, or at least has the option to become saved if he chooses it in the afterlife.

Let’s say for arguments sake this person never even knew about Christianity and lived a wicked atheist life. How did truth play into their salvation? In Mormonism, it doesn’t have to. Truth can be learned after death.

[MG 2.0]

I’m still not sure I understand how you can say that salvation and eternal life precede learning truth. That seems backwards.

Regards,
MG

I’m thinking specifically of truth learned in this life.

The example I’ll use is the person who died years ago without ever hearing about Mormonism. He was also baptized for the dead years ago and is now saved, or at least has the option to become saved if he chooses it in the afterlife.

Let’s say for arguments sake this person never even knew about Christianity and lived a wicked atheist life. How did truth play into their salvation? In Mormonism, it doesn’t have to. Truth can be learned after death.

So yes, LDS teachings provide the means for salvation in regards to those that died without knowledge and/or opportunity…real opportunity…to hear and accept truth. So in this instance that you have laid out the person would indeed have the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel and repent. Vicarious or proxy baptism would put them in a situation where they would then be able to chose ‘option A’ and progress in receiving all blessings God promises the faithful.

There are instances in the New Testament where Jesus promises that those that come into the fold later in the day, so to speak, are eligible for the same blessings as those that were within the covenant relationship with God from the get go. Even if they did not have full access to the truth during their probationary stage of ‘eternal life’.

But if we have the truth and reject it while in this probationary state we become accountable for having rejected that portion of God’s truth that we could have received. At least that is what the scriptures seem to teach.

Sure, it seems unfair that some don’t have to do the work and/or make the sacrifices that those that are in a covenant relationship with God make as they walk in obedience to God’s law. They, by default, also live without the companionship of the Holy Ghost as their guide which may have ramifications during their mortal sojourn. They also live without the opportunity to live in familial covenant relationships and experience the joy that comes through serving the Lord within the context of family connections and associations.

But that’s not to say that they can’t live lives of purpose/joy/meaning. Those lives are absent of the contextual meaning that the gospel provides, however. What that looks like as one transitions into the afterlife vs. those that hear/accept/live the gospel when given the opportunity in this life…I don’t know.

What I do believe is that God has a plan custom fit for each of His children and that where much is given much is expected.

In the example that you gave this individual missed out on many of the joys and opportunities that are possible within the gospel covenant. Can they have these blessings later on as they learn the truth? Sure. But I have to wonder whether or not it will look the same as in those instances where individuals and families have learned and accepted truth when made available to them either through birth or through missionary work.

I do think that it all is rather complicated and convoluted with many contours and patterns that are above the pay grade of humans to try and decipher and figure out. I’m willing to leave the messy details in God’s hands and simply be grateful for the blessings and opportunities that have been given me as a member of the church.

And to leave the choices that others make between them and their creator.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

...It comes back to truth(s) being located/found along a spectrum. Many of those truths may well lead towards salvation. Some of those truths, however, may lead toward exaltation.

And it’s different strokes for different folks....

You mention that baptism into the church comes at a cost. Yes, it does. But sacrifice brings forth blessings. And those blessings are unique to those that walk in obedience and according to the covenants made in within the gospel framework.

That’s not for everyone...

So, the LDS position, in your opinion mg, is that while the Atonement may provide salvation for all, only Mormons who have ordinances done in the LDS temple and are obedient to specific Mormon covenants are eligible for "exaltation"?

No. I do think that temples are essential to the work of salvation/exaltation, however. Thus the vicarious work that will be performed for everyone that belongs to the family of Adam before the final judgement.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Islam is good/true. The restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is good/truer. A spectrum or continuum of truth.

Allah be praised, but how do we know that good/truer does not mean putting that punk Jesus in his place as urged by Elder Bruce R. McConkie? I mean, who does he think he is being a distant 3rd in the big three!!! Mormonism for the win, Alex.

At least Islam got it right in allowing polygamy.

[drumdude]

I’m thinking specifically of truth learned in this life.

The example I’ll use is the person who died years ago without ever hearing about Mormonism. He was also baptized for the dead years ago and is now saved, or at least has the option to become saved if he chooses it in the afterlife.

Let’s say for arguments sake this person never even knew about Christianity and lived a wicked atheist life. How did truth play into their salvation? In Mormonism, it doesn’t have to. Truth can be learned after death.

So yes, LDS teachings provide the means for salvation in regards to those that died without knowledge and/or opportunity…real opportunity…to hear and accept truth. So in this instance that you have laid out the person would indeed have the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel and repent. Vicarious or proxy baptism would put them in a situation where they would then be able to chose ‘option A’ and progress in receiving all blessings God promises the faithful.

There are instances in the New Testament where Jesus promises that those that come into the fold later in the day, so to speak, are eligible for the same blessings as those that were within the covenant relationship with God from the get go. Even if they did not have full access to the truth during their probationary stage of ‘eternal life’.

But if we have the truth and reject it while in this probationary state we become accountable for having rejected that portion of God’s truth that we could have received. At least that is what the scriptures seem to teach.

Sure, it seems unfair that some don’t have to do the work and/or make the sacrifices that those that are in a covenant relationship with God make as they walk in obedience to God’s law. They, by default, also live without the companionship of the Holy Ghost as their guide which may have ramifications during their mortal sojourn. They also live without the opportunity to live in familial covenant relationships and experience the joy that comes through serving the Lord within the context of family connections and associations.

But that’s not to say that they can’t live lives of purpose/joy/meaning. Those lives are absent of the contextual meaning that the gospel provides, however. What that looks like as one transitions into the afterlife vs. those that hear/accept/live the gospel when given the opportunity in this life…I don’t know.

What I do believe is that God has a plan custom fit for each of His children and that where much is given much is expected.

In the example that you gave this individual missed out on many of the joys and opportunities that are possible within the gospel covenant. Can they have these blessings later on as they learn the truth? Sure. But I have to wonder whether or not it will look the same as in those instances where individuals and families have learned and accepted truth when made available to them either through birth or through missionary work.

I do think that it all is rather complicated and convoluted with many contours and patterns that are above the pay grade of humans to try and decipher and figure out. I’m willing to leave the messy details in God’s hands and simply be grateful for the blessings and opportunities that have been given me as a member of the church.

And to leave the choices that others make between them and their creator.

Regards,
MG

Your view is more gracious than many Mormons. Many will say that the highest level of glory is not attainable for non-Mormons who aren’t temple sealed.

While I appreciate that view, I think that it leads to an inescapable conclusion. That Mormonism is not necessary. I can continue to live my life without it, and I’m happy to be proven wrong later and will have ample time to fix it.

If it turns out Mormonism is wrong, which it most likely is, then I’ve just saved myself a lot of time, money, and trouble.

It’s a kind of reverse pascal wager. If Mormonism is true, you’re good to not believe. If Mormonism is false, you’re also good to not believe. So it doesn’t make any sense to stick with it, unless you just enjoy throwing away thousands of dollars and your Sundays.

And if you believe in Pascal’s wager, you should believe in a religion which actually punishes you for not believing in it. So you are meaningfully covering your bases.