a tangent from Gadiantons quiry about fearing judgement

[Morley]

Islamic theology is simple and has never been anywhere near as controversial among Muslims as Christian theology has been among Christians. The spiritual obligations and goals for individual Muslims are also much more straightforwardly attainable than the Christian paradoxes. Islam pays enormous attention, however, to how society runs. The big divisions in Islam are and have been legal and political rather than theological—not just implicitly, with theology exploited for political ends, but quite explicitly. The schism between Sunni and Shia was and is explicitly one between partisans of different candidates for the leadership of the Muslim community in succession to the Prophet. Religious authority figures in Islam are often called clerics but they are not in any sense priests or pastors: they are, quite literally and explicitly, lawyers.

This isn't a bad summary, PG. Thanks.

[huckelberry]

The same are still there. First to my mind would be escape from the rigidities of ancient law. Larger role for individual and growing understanding of moral possibilities and social possibilities. The second would be the person of Jesus, his encouragement and call. He presents a personal connection to Gods mercy, worth sharing.

Most of these so-called 'rigidities of ancient law' are cultural, rather than religious. An example that's close to my heart right now is what's going on in Iran, where women are rejecting the imposition of the universal requirement for wearing the hijab. Citing what they say is Sharia Law, the Mullahs want all women in the country to wear a headscarf. Women are rebelling to point of being willing to be hauled off to the infamous Evin prison to be tortured and killed. This requirement is a cultural artifact, disguised as a religious obligation. The people of the country know better. Even the clerics know better, though they pretend otherwise. (By the way, a woman in Iran who converted to Christianity would still need to wear the hijab.)

To bring this closer to home, Mormons have their white shirts in church, one earring in each ear, and no beards at BYU. All cultural bowlship disguised as piety.

Morley, I cannot say that I do not understand your observation. Still I find myself thinking that the relationships between cultural and religious is a bit complicated, intertwined. Sharia Law certainly has religious connection but is not foundational and would I think be ,more easily adjusted than some things. Iranian resistance to change may question that.

I do not find a sense of rules for dress for church. Well with second thought general modesty and decorum are expected. Then I realize that if I went in standard Mormon regalia I would just feel out of place. We just do not escape being shaped by custom.

[huckelberry]

This is why I think it's hard to say much about religion in general: religions are different. They're not even very close to being the same kind of thing. They don't just offer different answers to the same questions. They care about different questions.

Christianity has all this tricky theology, and a lot of tricky psychological gymnastics about trying to be truly humble and repentant, without being complacent, but also without relying upon your own strength. In Christianity practically any correct practice or belief has serious errors right next to it, into which one can easily fall. Christianity is mostly about individuals, however. Even in places and times where states were explicitly Christian or churches had political power, church and state and individual piety were recognized as distinct things which could be separated. Saints could flourish in pagan societies, while ruling Popes could be corrupt or incompetent.

Islam is in contrast so different that a Christian might wonder whether Islam is even a religion at all—and Muslims could wonder the same in reverse. Islamic theology is simple and has never been anywhere near as controversial among Muslims as Christian theology has been among Christians. The spiritual obligations and goals for individual Muslims are also much more straightforwardly attainable than the Christian paradoxes. Islam pays enormous attention, however, to how society runs. The big divisions in Islam are and have been legal and political rather than theological—not just implicitly, with theology exploited for political ends, but quite explicitly. The schism between Sunni and Shia was and is explicitly one between partisans of different candidates for the leadership of the Muslim community in succession to the Prophet. Religious authority figures in Islam are often called clerics but they are not in any sense priests or pastors: they are, quite literally and explicitly, lawyers.

Christians and Muslims can find common ground in talking about religious belief and practice, but only up to a fairly early point. Past that point the discussion isn't like a debate between Ford and Toyota owners, but more like a faltering chat between a goldfish fancier and a Thoroughbred breeder. Yes, we both like animals. Some kinds of animals. Um.

Physics guy, you have thoughtful observation as you frequently do. In this case I found my self inclined to disagree despite the sense that you said a lot which is quite true.

In my open post I thought I was observing that fundamental aspects of Islam and Christianity are quite the same.Humans should recognize their indebtedness to creator with gratitude and a sense of responsibility. People need forgiveness and mercy from their creator due to the human failings. God in his concern for us provides mercy to share his goodness. We respond to that mercy.

Then there is the common ground of the Bible and the Bible story of God leading people.

Yet the direction of the two religions in development are certainly different. I can see saying they are different things.

I actually was thinking first of my suspicion or fear that the tricky gymnastics which you refer to are closer to phony polishing of personal pride than useful. But then efforts to be helpful can entangle a person in conflicting motivations awareness and strategy. So perhaps the gymnastic pattern might have a positive dimension. Similarly some of the complications of Christian theology have a useful value but have also been matters of destructive conflict and too much political force used in the resolutions.

[huckelberry]

One of the churches I visit strongly believes that if you are not Christian you will not be saved. They pray for their families to find Jesus so they can meet again.

It made me feel a sadness.

I do not believe Jesus is God but apparently Christians believe Jesus is God.

A different church talked about how God loves everyone and everyone is saved no matter what they do just by believing in Christ which is essentially the same vision but something about how it was said felt different.

I grew up believing repentance was a necessity and without it I was evil. Even though I didn't know what I was resending for. I was always repenting and always thinking I was a sinner and I wasn't good enough and no matter what, I was bad. I literally didn't do anything to be bad but it was built into me.

I can visualise that God would love everyone because I'd love my kids even if they were bad kids. And I can visualise that God already knows everything and still loves us.

I can't work out how Jesus dying was our salvation in relation to sin. I don't understand the whole sacrifice thing. I think Jesus would only be a sacrifice to God for us if we had a relationship with him and we felt overwhelming sadness and suffered for his suffering but he supposidly suffered so we didn't have to suffer. So then it is his sacrifice. But how does that transfer to us receiving forgiveness for our shortcomings.

Why tell us to repent if we are already forgiven and repentance isnt necessary?

My personal understanding is that Jesus had shown us that life doesn't end at death. And so that's how we are saved. Because believing is magic.

I didn't really understand the point of this post. I've been out of sinc with humans for a long time. I kind of feel like what is being expressed is that Islam and Christianity essentially have the same perspective. But obviously Islam doesn't require the sacrifice of Jesus. I read some of the Qur'an when I was in secondary school. I was a minority there. The school was predominantly Muslim. They didn't express much different really. They were generally nicer than my experience with pedominantly white schools. They liked that my Mormonism was similar to their way.

I did once have a conversation where I was told that if a Muslim asks me 3 times to convert and I say no 3 times they can murder me, which freaked me out.

Imwashingmypirate, this thread seems to have touched a nerve for you causing a spilling of a variety of concerns.

I imagine it might be a good thing you had opportunity to go to school with Muslim students. I also am pretty sure the three refusal threat is a false thing made up to create fear of Muslims. As we all know there is a variety of views about salvation of Muslims held by Christian individuals. I believe with Jewish thought that all people of good will will be included in Gods mercy and salvation. I imagine that includes many Muslims.

I think my opening post opened the problem of the meaning of atonement with my complaint about the how do you pay for your sins question. I doubt I can make(or have) a complete explanation of atonement. Thinking of very traditional and central observations it is important to consider that it works because God wants it to , wills to accept it for people and in his mercy applies it to people. It is Gods mercy not your efforts to apply it to your self through emotions or worry that connects you to Jesus atonement. Accept the gift and make the most of your life.

[IWMP]

One of the churches I visit strongly believes that if you are not Christian you will not be saved. They pray for their families to find Jesus so they can meet again.

It made me feel a sadness.

I do not believe Jesus is God but apparently Christians believe Jesus is God.

A different church talked about how God loves everyone and everyone is saved no matter what they do just by believing in Christ which is essentially the same vision but something about how it was said felt different.

I grew up believing repentance was a necessity and without it I was evil. Even though I didn't know what I was resending for. I was always repenting and always thinking I was a sinner and I wasn't good enough and no matter what, I was bad. I literally didn't do anything to be bad but it was built into me.

I can visualise that God would love everyone because I'd love my kids even if they were bad kids. And I can visualise that God already knows everything and still loves us.

I can't work out how Jesus dying was our salvation in relation to sin. I don't understand the whole sacrifice thing. I think Jesus would only be a sacrifice to God for us if we had a relationship with him and we felt overwhelming sadness and suffered for his suffering but he supposidly suffered so we didn't have to suffer. So then it is his sacrifice. But how does that transfer to us receiving forgiveness for our shortcomings.

Why tell us to repent if we are already forgiven and repentance isnt necessary?

My personal understanding is that Jesus had shown us that life doesn't end at death. And so that's how we are saved. Because believing is magic.

I didn't really understand the point of this post. I've been out of sinc with humans for a long time. I kind of feel like what is being expressed is that Islam and Christianity essentially have the same perspective. But obviously Islam doesn't require the sacrifice of Jesus. I read some of the Qur'an when I was in secondary school. I was a minority there. The school was predominantly Muslim. They didn't express much different really. They were generally nicer than my experience with pedominantly white schools. They liked that my Mormonism was similar to their way.

I did once have a conversation where I was told that if a Muslim asks me 3 times to convert and I say no 3 times they can murder me, which freaked me out.

Imwashingmypirate, this thread seems to have touched a nerve for you causing a spilling of a variety of concerns.

I imagine it might be a good thing you had opportunity to go to school with Muslim students. I also am pretty sure the three refusal threat is a false thing made up to create fear of Muslims. As we all know there is a variety of views about salvation of Muslims held by Christian individuals. I believe with Jewish thought that all people of good will will be included in Gods mercy and salvation. I imagine that includes many Muslims.

I think my opening post opened the problem of the meaning of atonement with my complaint about the how do you pay for your sins question. I doubt I can make(or have) a complete explanation of atonement. Thinking of very traditional and central observations it is important to consider that it works because God wants it to , wills to accept it for people and in his mercy applies it to people. It is Gods mercy not your efforts to apply it to your self through emotions or worry that connects you to Jesus atonement. Accept the gift and make the most of your life.

I'm quite an emotive writer. How I feel and what I wrote aren't massively connected. I honestly would have stopped thinking about this after submitting. I'm also struggling to understand what everyone is saying in nearly every thread I read. I used to feel like I understood everything. It feels like my brain is thick and custardy. But being in here and attempting to join in should bring me back, I hope. I haven't taken part in forums or any discussions in life for a very long time. I barely have an opportunity to talk at all. Started counselling so talking more than usual.

Pretty sure the guy that said that about being asked to convert was just a d1ck.

I only hope that there is at least some amount of value in the things I post and it's not all just spaghetti.

I don't know if I experience the atonement or religion as a gift. It always felt like an expectation. My experience of life is that nothing is without cost. But at the end of the day I'm too tired.

[huckelberry]

I don't know if I experience the atonement or religion as a gift. It always felt like an expectation. My experience of life is that nothing is without cost. But at the end of the day I'm too tired.

Yea, sometimes giddy talk about free gift of grace sounds like stones. We all know life is full of work and it can be hard in lots of ways. Still there are basics of life we receive without work each day.

[High Spy]

I don't know if I experience the atonement or religion as a gift. It always felt like an expectation. My experience of life is that nothing is without cost. But at the end of the day I'm too tired.

Yea, sometimes giddy talk about free gift of grace sounds like stones. We all know life is full of work and it can be hard in lots of ways. Still there are basics of life we receive without work each day.

Good point.

My working life is nearing an end, called retirement after one last work adventure, as a new career likely takes flight.

[Physics Guy]

I was observing that fundamental aspects of Islam and Christianity are quite the same. Humans should recognize their indebtedness to creator with gratitude and a sense of responsibility. People need forgiveness and mercy from their creator due to the human failings. God in his concern for us provides mercy to share his goodness. We respond to that mercy.

Then there is the common ground of the Bible and the Bible story of God leading people.

Yeah, I guess I made the amount of common ground between Christianity and Islam too small. Or at least, I oversimplified. These are big, old religions. The total amount of ground they each cover is huge, and the amount they have in common can be pretty large even if the separate grounds are also big.

A Christian who was really into theology, or who was a nun or a monk or something, might really have little to talk about with a Muslim who was deeply learned in fiqh (Islamic legal theory). If you want to get really religious and spend a lot of your life getting into your religion as such, then I think that Islam and Christianity are going to lead you into pretty different directions.

You're right that more ordinary Christians and Muslims are likely to have a lot more in common, though. Even if the books they read are different, just the fact that they all look to some ancient and somewhat ambiguous book for ultimate guidance has to count for a lot—as it did, historically, in the Muslim designation of Jews and Christians as "People of the Book".

[Physics Guy]

I could maybe add a qualification about Christian and Muslim theology. The couple of books I've read have pretty firmly supported what I heard in a lecture once, that Muslim theology strongly tends to be simple and straightforward, while Christian theology, in contrast, is famously paradoxical. I don't actually count that against Christianity, though.

What I know of physics makes me expect reality to be tricky for humans to grasp. Even if it's beautifully simple from the right point of view, that point of view can be quite hard for humans to see. I'd be surprised if any Christian formulations had really perfectly nailed the whole truth, but the Christian thrashing around about just how much deity and humanity have in common looks to me like the kind of thing humans are bound to do if we try to understand anything real.

I don't mean that Christian theology resembles science to any degree that might count as evidence that it is true. I just mean that I don't think the difficulty of Christian theology should be counted as evidence against it being an blurry human glimpse of something true, because if Christian theology were that kind of glimpse, I doubt it would look much more simple and clear than it does.

[huckelberry]

I could maybe add a qualification about Christian and Muslim theology. The couple of books I've read have pretty firmly supported what I heard in a lecture once, that Muslim theology strongly tends to be simple and straightforward, while Christian theology, in contrast, is famously paradoxical. I don't actually count that against Christianity, though.

What I know of physics makes me expect reality to be tricky for humans to grasp. Even if it's beautifully simple from the right point of view, that point of view can be quite hard for humans to see. I'd be surprised if any Christian formulations had really perfectly nailed the whole truth, but the Christian thrashing around about just how much deity and humanity have in common looks to me like the kind of thing humans are bound to do if we try to understand anything real.

I don't mean that Christian theology resembles science to any degree that might count as evidence that it is true. I just mean that I don't think the difficulty of Christian theology should be counted as evidence against it being an blurry human glimpse of something true, because if Christian theology were that kind of glimpse, I doubt it would look much more simple and clear than it does.

Physics Guy, your observations made me think of people complaining that they do not find the Trinity understandable. I am inclined to wonder what they are trying to do with understanding. I think to understand the Trinity one would have to have an in depth understanding of the inner working of God. One would have to understand how God knows, thinks, influences things and creates. Yet no human knows anything of any of that. We do not have any beginning to understand the Trinity with. The Trinity is not a hazy mystery a bit out reach of our understanding. I am reasonable sure it is something we have no beginning to understand and zero chance of actually knowing.

Well Christian thinkers have speculated analogies.