What is a spiritual experience?

[Gadianton]

Spirit/body duality vs. strict materialism has always been a fascination for me. If I was to choose materialism I would be looking strictly to brain function as being the source of spiritual experiences or what some refer to as ‘elevation’.

It's too bad then that according to Joseph Smith, there is "no such thing as immaterial matter" and as a Mormon, you are a "strict materialist". Your spirit and the spirit world and everything in it is material. It may be "more refined" as Joseph Smith said, but it is still material. How adding a "spirit function (that is material)" to brain function is anymore mystical than brain function alone would be interesting for you to explain (not).

It's like in one of those Saturday morning cartoons where there's a literal door depicted in outer space, it opens up, and it goes to a "different realm" or "dimension" or some other place that is exactly like our realm but with a tiny modification or two to make it feel different to the mind of the average six-year-old.

It's really fascinating, MG, that you know so little about the religion you profess to believe. Where did you ever get the idea that you weren't a materialist? Was it from Dan? If so, did he ever explain how that works? (no, he just proclaims it)

[Marcus]

Spirit/body duality vs. strict materialism has always been a fascination for me. If I was to choose materialism I would be looking strictly to brain function as being the source of spiritual experiences or what some refer to as ‘elevation’.

It's too bad then that according to Joseph Smith, there is "no such thing as immaterial matter" and as a Mormon, you are a "strict materialist". Your spirit and the spirit world and everything in it is material. It may be "more refined" as Joseph Smith said, but it is still material. How adding a "spirit function (that is material)" to brain function is anymore mystical than brain function alone would be interesting for you to explain (not)...

llrc, he once tried and failed epically in a massive thread started by the illustrious DrW. It turns out a burning in the bosom of a gymnast is just a mental thing. Or, as you put it...

It's like in one of those Saturday morning cartoons where there's a literal door depicted in outer space, it opens up, and it goes to a "different realm" or "dimension" or some other place that is exactly like our realm but with a tiny modification or two to make it feel different to the mind of the average six-year-old...

Exactly.

It's really fascinating, MG, that you know so little about the religion you profess to believe. Where did you ever get the idea that you weren't a materialist? Was it from Dan? If so, did he ever explain how that works? (no, he just proclaims it)

That's what I don't understand. I don't recall being comfortable with his extreme level of picking and choosing what parts to follow and what parts to flat out just make up.. Oh wait, is that what Shades defined as a cafeteria Mormon?

(Answer to myself: No, Shades defined the terms internet and chapel Mormon.

Sidenote: When I looked for a reference to make sure I had that right, I found out that our dear leader has his own entry in the FAIR encyclopedia of misdirection, mistake, and misnomer!

...This specific terminology was introduced by a critic of Mormonism, <in real life snipped>, who presented his theory at the 2004 Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City.[2] It is clear from his comments—and from his lack of rigorous survey methodology — that he started with a polemical argument and conducted his research to fit his predetermined conclusions...
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... mons.22.3F

I'm sure the regulars here knew this already, but I am still newish to mopologetica, and am regularly surprised at what I find. And seriously, FAIR? seriously???? It sounds like whoever wrote the above part that I bolded went on to define the Interpreter's playground peer review policy. Allen. )

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Thank you, Jersey Girl. That was simply stunning.

That was beautiful, Jersey Girl. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

- Doc

[huckelberry]

Jersey Girl takes us from the wonder of living in this world and universe to the wonder of sharing life with others and the growth of a child. I think that connection is the heart of the matter. If being spiritually alive is letting wonder turn into love of others then spiritual experiences are moments that remind us alert and teach us these basic facts of being human.

The photo is lovely even though I puzzle a bit over the abandoned mine works. Just as an aesthetic thing they somehow include well.

Thanks Jersey Girl.

[huckelberry]

Spirit/body duality vs. strict materialism has always been a fascination for me. If I was to choose materialism I would be looking strictly to brain function as being the source of spiritual experiences or what some refer to as ‘elevation’.

It's too bad then that according to Joseph Smith, there is "no such thing as immaterial matter" and as a Mormon, you are a "strict materialist". Your spirit and the spirit world and everything in it is material. It may be "more refined" as Joseph Smith said, but it is still material. How adding a "spirit function (that is material)" to brain function is anymore mystical than brain function alone would be interesting for you to explain (not).

It's like in one of those Saturday morning cartoons where there's a literal door depicted in outer space, it opens up, and it goes to a "different realm" or "dimension" or some other place that is exactly like our realm but with a tiny modification or two to make it feel different to the mind of the average six-year-old.

It's really fascinating, MG, that you know so little about the religion you profess to believe. Where did you ever get the idea that you weren't a materialist? Was it from Dan? If so, did he ever explain how that works? (no, he just proclaims it)

Gadianton, As best as I can see it Mormons and Joseph Smith kept everything that people generally call spirit and just renamed it as material more refined. About all that means is that spirit is real as apposed to imaginary. It still functions outside of the limits of the physics of the unrefined material world.

I am inclined to see MG understanding of Mormonism as pretty normal. I do not think Mormon understanding of refined matter would be stuff limited in qualities or potential of regular matter. It is thought of as superior is it not?

[Res Ipsa]

I don’t think there is any biological distinction between awe a spiritual experience. I think the distinction is cultural and linguistic. I grew up in a culture that interpreted a type of emotion as the spirit of God. My culture not only told me that this spiritual experience was real, but also told me how to have the experience.

I’m reminded of an episode of Invisibilia from a few years back about a married couple of anthropologists who lived with a tribe of headhunters in the Philippines. The tribe had a word for an emotional state that had no counterpart in English. They described it as “the thing that makes us want to take a head.” https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... -in-a-word

I still experience the same emotions that my brain once identified as “the spirit” even though I no longer believe in a God or a spirit. The same emotions can be produced by electrically stimulating my brain. Had I not been raised in a culture that singled out a subset of “awe” as beings contented with a God and with a language that differentiates between spirit of God and awe, I suspect that I would experience any distinction at all.

[MG 2.0]

Spirit/body duality vs. strict materialism has always been a fascination for me. If I was to choose materialism I would be looking strictly to brain function as being the source of spiritual experiences or what some refer to as ‘elevation’. Then I would go home, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought except for, “That was cool!”

Really? So, if you were looking strictly to brain function as being the source of the emotional sensations you felt when attending the birth of your child, you’d go home after the birth, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought except to think it was cool?

You think people who don’t believe in the supernatural attend the birth of their children and then go home, eat lunch, and not give it much more thought than to think it was cool?

Much more thought in regards to whether or not there was anything supernatural/divine involved. I thought I made myself clear in the full context of my post.

Apparently not.

Of course people remember the feelings of elevation they’ve had during times in their lives that have special meaning to them.

I don’t think that strict materialists are going to ponder much on Spirituality in the religious sense.

A strict materialist does not believe in the divine or any supernatural entities. Materialism is a philosophical position that holds that everything that exists is ultimately physical or material in nature, and that there is no non-physical or spiritual realm. This means that materialists do not believe in gods, spirits, or any other supernatural beings or forces. Instead, they believe that all phenomena can be explained in terms of the interactions of physical matter and energy, and that there is no need to invoke any supernatural explanations. For materialists, the universe is a self-contained, natural system that operates according to natural laws and principles, and there is no need to postulate the existence of any divine or supernatural beings to explain its workings.

Pi A.I.

Maybe I should have said a strict materialist would go home and think, “That was SUPER COOL!!!”

I’m not trying to take away at all the common experiences humanity has when we feel that wonderment or that awe that can almost literally overwhelm us.

If you want to chalk it all up to “phenomena can be explained in terms of the interactions of physical matter and energy”, that’s fine. But don’t then go and say that a religious person hasn’t experienced the divine or had a witness that something is true or that God is in their life.

You don’t have any business doing that. As Tim Walz would say, “Mind your own damn business!!”

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

It's really fascinating, MG, that you know so little about the religion you profess to believe. Where did you ever get the idea that you weren't a materialist?

I am in the spiritual sense. But not in this sense:

A strict materialist does not believe in the divine or any supernatural entities. Materialism is a philosophical position that holds that everything that exists is ultimately physical or material in nature, and that there is no non-physical or spiritual realm. This means that materialists do not believe in gods, spirits, or any other supernatural beings or forces. Instead, they believe that all phenomena can be explained in terms of the interactions of physical matter and energy, and that there is no need to invoke any supernatural explanations. For materialists, the universe is a self-contained, natural system that operates according to natural laws and principles, and there is no need to postulate the existence of any divine or supernatural beings to explain its workings.

I could have been more clear. I assumed that you would already know that I am knowledgeable of the doctrines of the church in regards to the spirit of man being at its fundamental substantive base/core being composed of ‘refined matter’.

One can believe in a creator God while at the same time disbelieving in the doctrine of ‘hard materialists’.

But I think you already know that.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

It turns out a burning in the bosom of a gymnast is just a mental thing.

No, I wouldn’t consider that a burning in the bosom is necessarily just a mental thing.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Thanks Jersey Girl.

Yes, thank you.

Regards,
MG