What if Mormonism has its dualism backwards?

[sock puppet]

It is important to remember that, according to Mormon doctrine, individual entities have always existed as intelligences, as intelligences and spirit, and also as intelligences, spirit, and body, for all time and eternity. In the beliefs of Mormonism, it is suggested that as we exist here on Earth, after we have moved beyond our life here on Earth, there is a possibility that you and I could encounter someone that would look and exist just like us, but at this moment you and I are communicating, they may exists without a spirit or body, and notably, do not yet have a Heavenly Father or Mother. At this moment in time they exist solely as what defines them, and intelligence. But in the future, you and I could shake hands with them.

Ok. Intelligence has always existed. It is the 'light of truth. D&C 93:29: "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." “Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. The first principles of man are self-existent with God” Larsen, Stan. ‘The King Follett Discourse: A Newly Amalgamated Text.” BYU Studies 18 (Winter 1978): 204.

The intelligences, however, were "organized", though not created. Abraham 3:22. Is the result of organizing intelligence, then, spirits? Apparently not, because spirits existed before intelligences were organized. Spirits too are co-eternal with God. "...yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal." Abraham 3:18.

So what then is the difference between intelligence and spirit if both have always existed, and neither was created? In what sense is God our 'spirit father' or 'father in heaven' if He did not create us as spirits? Does 'father' just mean superior to 'children'?" Joseph Smith, in an address delivered in Commerce, Illinois, on 2 June 1839, said, 'The spirit of man is not a created being: it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal. . . .' (Journal of Discourses 6:238; hereafter JD). The Prophet here appears to use intelligence and spirit synonymously, perhaps in part, because of his translation of the Book of Abraham." https://rsc.BYU.edu/pearl-great-price-r ... New Testament-thought

It is pretty clear in LDS theology, as it were, that these intelligences/spirits did not have a body until born into this mortal sphere.

Will there be as part of exaltation yet another sphere or layer added to our intelligence/spirit/body existence, so that we can live like ? Like heavy water differs from H2O? "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng Does God, as an exalted man, have another another sphere or layer added to our intelligence/spirit/body existence so that the life God lives, as an exalted man, is possible? Will it be a sphere/layer that lets us read minds, travel instantaneously anywhere just by thinking about it? Etc.?

[IWMP]

In what sense is Harris a non-materialist? The big problem with substance dualism—the theory that spirit is a kind of stuff that's just somehow different from matter—is that it really amounts to materialism with two classes of matter.

That wasn't originally a silly theory. At least one important phenomenon really is all about a special kind of material: electricity. Electrical current is an invisible material fluid that can flow through other things, even solids, and interact with them in weird and dramatic ways. It's usually made of electrons which, insofar as they are loose from atoms and moving independently, are a different kind of matter from the neutral atoms that make up most objects. In principle, the idea that spiritual phenomena are all similarly due to some different kind of substance from ordinary matter is by no means ridiculous.

Not every phenomenon is about its own kind of substance, however. For a long time people thought that heat was its own kind of substance, separate from whatever just made up objects, and that this heat fluid could flow into and out of and through things like water in sponges—or, indeed, like electrons through conductors. They turned out to be right about electricity but wrong about heat. Heat is not a kind of stuff but a kind of motion, a slight but fast shaking and vibrating that any matter can do.

If spirit is more like heat than like electricity, then that's really a more profound kind of dualism than substance dualism, because it says that spirit is more fundamentally different from matter than by just being another flavour of matter. We can still use an even older analogy, and say that spirit is like wind. Wind is not a second kind of substance, besides air molecules. A breeze is not when some wind-stuff mixes into the air like diffusing perfume. Wind is a way the air moves. So is sound.

If somebody thinks that "real" must mean "substance", then if one adopted their language one might have to tell them that sound, wind, and heat are not real, but are only illusions. That would be a bizarre use of "real" though. It might be better to get them to ditch that clumsy vocabulary. If you're saying, "Heat isn't real", you must not understand heat—or else not understand real.

I had a few thoughts and hopefully I can put them into words. Lol

I know my Physics knowledge is packed away somewhere back in the storage of my brain so what I write would be more intuitive thought than actual fact.

Conscious doesn't have evidence or can be located as specifically as electrons and electricity (at this time). Unless I am unaware of it. Electrons have wave particle duality. They have a calculated mass. Electricity travels through specific matter (conductors) as does heat and sound. They need the matter to exist. Even if we look at EM waves, without he M, the E doesn't propel and vice versa. And of course there are still feelings about what EM waves travel through. We claim to know a vacuum to be an empty space without matter but deep down, there could be a whole other set of physics laws outside of our experience. Especially if we consider an omnipotent God who exists outside of time as space as we know it. I know I'm delving outside of the box here.

I don't think we are taught that electricity is a wave, like light and sound but I can visualise heat and electricity behaving a lot like sound. Movement of matter. Electricity being the movement of electron energy. As someone who has been electrocuted several times, it certainly feels like a wave.

If the spirit is like heat then that would tell us that the spirit wouldn't exist without matter. Which means either he spirit lays dormant during death and may re-emerge at a resurrection. (Assuming this is the case). But then decomposed beings wouldn't have matter as such for a soul to travel through in that sense.

I tend to think of consciousness as being more along the lines of magnetic field/EM field. Well, it's more an idea that floats in my mind. The brain contains electricity. Maybe not commercial electricity. Light is a general topic across religion and spiritualism. The Bible teaches that we are the light. It also says that God created light which to me is EM waves which we see from the beginning of time within this universe. The EM waves are stretching.

I think I read somewhere about a field around he brain but I can't recall the details. People believe people have auras as fields around them.

I think if we equate consciousness to phenomena that we experience as appearing non physical but are purely limited to the physical realm then we don't have hope for a live beyond this life. We need to consider that what we visualise consciousness and spirit to be, would need to be something that is very different and not tied to the physical body.

Sound would disappear if it came upon a vacuum. We can see electrons moving in a vacuum but are electrons moving in a vacuum the same as an electrical current?

I think, we experience these things but the are intrinsic to the system. Like colour. Everything has different colours and tones. But colour as we experience it wouldn't exist without the movement of energy releasing photons from the electron excitation as a result of light interaction. It's intrinsic to matter and involves movement of state.

So I guess we need to think about whether we are able to find a way for consciousness to be understood that accounts for spiritual experience that allows for hope of something beyond the physical.

I tend to think, if there are many dimensions (not he parallel universe kind, the 2D, 3D, 4D and so on kind) and we are confined to the 3rd dimension and can only visualise the 2nd dimension and lower fully without interaction and making assumptions but we have a vague grasp of the idea of what the 4th Dimension is. And if we look at The idea of a being living in the 2D world who could make he assumption that there is a 3D world by careful analysis of changes within it's existence, who fully comprehends what 1 dimension looks like And knows what 2D looks like based on experience. Then when we leave the 3 dimensional physical matter world and progress to higher dimensions we would be able to see time in a way that isn't just seeing changes. It would be more tangible. And even further beyond that eventually seeing all time as lower fully comprehendible dimensions where we can see every angle at once and not have to manipulate it and connect the images to develop that meaning.

So I think to get to the point, I would like to think that there is more out there and something of our being continues but I'm pretty sure is something we can't even visualise in this state.

Perhaps our consciousness is not the same as the part of our existence that is capable of more.

I went way off what I wanted to say. I think. Even lot he point of what I wanted to say lol.

[Gadianton]

but this is not the same as imagining a brain with all the microscopic activity

He can also imagine a car that goes 2,000 mph down the highway without contradiction even though he can't imagine it with all the real laws of physics. Let's hope it's possible to imagine physically impossible things, otherwise Einstein couldn't have imagined a train travelling at the speed of light. It is a bold claim to conceive a fact about two physically identical worlds that is different. David Lewis, who made up the idea of minimal physicalism, gave the example of moral facts being identical in two physically identical worlds. You can't reduce morals to atoms, but can two physically identical worlds be different morally? Can Hitler be good in one and bad in the other?

The answer seems to obviously be "no", which gives the intuition that physicalism must be true. We don't object and want a full physical description of both worlds first. We'd only want that if he said "yes, actually there could be." Then we assume a microscope will find a physical difference. But we have no clue what that difference might be. The conception of "physicalism" is every bit as first-intension as the conception of a "Zombie". So the "future physics" rebuttal is really just conceiving of physics one day explaining it instead of conceiving of a Zombie.

[IWMP]

It is important to remember that, according to Mormon doctrine, individual entities have always existed as intelligences, as intelligences and spirit, and also as intelligences, spirit, and body, for all time and eternity. In the beliefs of Mormonism, it is suggested that as we exist here on Earth, after we have moved beyond our life here on Earth, there is a possibility that you and I could encounter someone that would look and exist just like us, but at this moment you and I are communicating, they may exists without a spirit or body, and notably, do not yet have a Heavenly Father or Mother. At this moment in time they exist solely as what defines them, and intelligence. But in the future, you and I could shake hands with them.

Ok. Intelligence has always existed. It is the 'light of truth. D&C 93:29: "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." “Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. The first principles of man are self-existent with God” Larsen, Stan. ‘The King Follett Discourse: A Newly Amalgamated Text.” BYU Studies 18 (Winter 1978): 204.

The intelligences, however, were "organized", though not created. Abraham 3:22. Is the result of organizing intelligence, then, spirits? Apparently not, because spirits existed before intelligences were organized. Spirits too are co-eternal with God. "...yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal." Abraham 3:18.

So what then is the difference between intelligence and spirit if both have always existed, and neither was created? In what sense is God our 'spirit father' or 'father in heaven' if He did not create us as spirits? Does 'father' just mean superior to 'children'?" Joseph Smith, in an address delivered in Commerce, Illinois, on 2 June 1839, said, 'The spirit of man is not a created being: it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal. . . .' (Journal of Discourses 6:238; hereafter JD). The Prophet here appears to use intelligence and spirit synonymously, perhaps in part, because of his translation of the Book of Abraham." https://rsc.BYU.edu/pearl-great-price-r ... New Testament-thought

It is pretty clear in LDS theology, as it were, that these intelligences/spirits did not have a body until born into this mortal sphere.

Will there be as part of exaltation yet another sphere or layer added to our intelligence/spirit/body existence, so that we can live like ? Like heavy water differs from H2O? "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng Does God, as an exalted man, have another another sphere or layer added to our intelligence/spirit/body existence so that the life God lives, as an exalted man, is possible? Will it be a sphere/layer that lets us read minds, travel instantaneously anywhere just by thinking about it? Etc.?

If intelligences existed with God then God didn't conceive them with his wife in the pre existence unless the pre existence has a preexistence I discovered some Christians don't believe in human pre existence recently.

[Hound of Heaven]

unless the pre existence has a preexistence

Indeed. In authentic Mormon belief, the pre-existence itself has a pre existence, which you are right about, this is indeed part of Mormon doctrine, even if it is not frequently discussed today.

Modern Mormonism focuses on presenting itself as Christian, leading to the removal of many intriguing doctrines.

According to Mormon doctrine, the pre existence to the pre existence marked the initial phase of our eternal existence. As beings of intelligence in the first realm, we possessed the power of choice. We experienced emotions, and everything we can feel or accomplish here on Earth with our minds, we could also achieve there. We resided there for a considerable duration, and after finishing our tasks, we transitioned to the second realm, which Mormons refer to as the pre-existence.

[drumdude]

It seems like in the case of Terri Shaivo, for example, we think we know what the necessary conditions for consciousness are, even if we don’t know what the sufficient conditions are. If we don’t see the brain signals we expect, we conclude that consciousness is impossible.

But how can we be sure?

I don't understand how his wife makes the leap from subconscious activities hidden from our stream of conscious thoughts to other pockets of nonliving matter also having hidden sentient awareness. I also don't understand why she says that there is no good reason to assume consciousness only applies to biological systems.

I think the idea is that our definitions of consciousness rely on external cues. If there is an aspect of consciousness that is completely internal, and hidden from the external world, then that opens up the possibility.

Somewhat like defining an iceberg only from the water up.

Although, unlike an iceberg - if you cut off the top, occasionally the bottom can peer above the surface. We don't have any evidence that the internal hidden parts of consciousness have any interaction with the material world. Unless you count unverifiable religious experiences.

If materialism is correct, we should be able to not only read the thoughts of people, we should be able to completely describe their emotions and feelings, the depths of their sorrows and joys. That's a tall order.

[IWMP]

unless the pre existence has a preexistence

Indeed. In authentic Mormon belief, the pre-existence itself has a pre existence, which you are right about, this is indeed part of Mormon doctrine, even if it is not frequently discussed today.

Modern Mormonism focuses on presenting itself as Christian, leading to the removal of many intriguing doctrines.

According to Mormon doctrine, the pre existence to the pre existence marked the initial phase of our eternal existence. As beings of intelligence in the first realm, we possessed the power of choice. We experienced emotions, and everything we can feel or accomplish here on Earth with our minds, we could also achieve there. We resided there for a considerable duration, and after finishing our tasks, we transitioned to the second realm, which Mormons refer to as the pre-existence.

So, could that then mean that after this existence we could need to go through more existences per se to find completeness .

I do think I was aware that the church taught that God was once a man in Mormonism which would mean he had to go through a resurrection and a judgement so then there must have also been a crucifixion in his time. I have a vague recollection that there was a stone found that had talked about a saviour that came a long time before Jesus. With a different name who was also sacrificed in the same way. I'll see if I can find it. Might be the Gabriel inscription. But I can't remember exactly.

[Hound of Heaven]

is pretty clear in LDS theology, as it were, that these intelligences/spirits did not have a body until born into this mortal sphere.

Mormon doctrine states that our heavenly parents in the spirit world, prior to our arrival on earth, provided us with spirit bodies. In the spirit world we were formed in the image of God.

Dualism. Intelligence and spirit.

[Hound of Heaven]

So, could that then mean that after this existence we could need to go through more existences per se to find completeness .

Anything is possible in Mormonism. So yes!

[Hound of Heaven]

Indeed. In authentic Mormon belief, the pre-existence itself has a pre existence, which you are right about, this is indeed part of Mormon doctrine, even if it is not frequently discussed today.

Modern Mormonism focuses on presenting itself as Christian, leading to the removal of many intriguing doctrines.

According to Mormon doctrine, the pre existence to the pre existence marked the initial phase of our eternal existence. As beings of intelligence in the first realm, we possessed the power of choice. We experienced emotions, and everything we can feel or accomplish here on Earth with our minds, we could also achieve there. We resided there for a considerable duration, and after finishing our tasks, we transitioned to the second realm, which Mormons refer to as the pre-existence.

So, could that then mean that after this existence we could need to go through more existences per se to find completeness .

I do think I was aware that the church taught that God was once a man in Mormonism which would mean he had to go through a resurrection and a judgement so then there must have also been a crucifixion in his time. I have a vague recollection that there was a stone found that had talked about a saviour that came a long time before Jesus. With a different name who was also sacrificed in the same way. I'll see if I can find it. Might be the Gabriel inscription. But I can't remember exactly.

The dualism present in Christianity, as understood in Mormon doctrine, stems from the fact that early Christians, continuing to the present, have adhered to a gospel significantly shaped by the deceptions of Satan and by individuals who permitted paganism to affect Christian beliefs.

Mormons hold the belief that numerous valuable truths were taken away from the authentic gospel, which they refer to as the restored gospel.

It’s somewhat amusing that the church leaders, particularly in the last three decades, have been altering and reshaping Mormonism to resemble Christianity. They are essentially engaging in the same actions that early Christians were condemned for, by taking steps to eliminate or cease discussions on some of the most significant doctrines of the Mormon gospel.

This is a screenshot of page 127 from the book "Gospel through the Ages" by Milton R. Hunter, published in 1902. It discusses the perspective of Mormons on a pre-existence to the pre-existence. In Mormonism, dualism is fulfilled in the pre-existence when our intelligence is clothed in an actual spirit body, thereby completing the mind-body definition of dualism, that they are distinct and separate entities.

Am I mistaken, or is this not the true definition of dualism? At least according to the Mormon perspective.



Daniel Peterson is too preoccupied with his ambitious quest to transform the Mormon church into a Christian denomination to engage in this conversation.