Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.

[Kishkumen]

On the one hand, I am sympathetic to their concern about the impact of the CES letter. Unfortunately, the problems are serious enough that none of these bandaid solutions is likely to have much impact. Too bad they feel they have to engage in intellectually dishonest, vapid, and offensive videos that apply the worst and most inaccurate two-dimensional stereotypes to their perceived opponents. What they need is a robust educational system in the LDS Church that does not emphasize questions about the antiquity of a book that is quite simply not chronologically ancient.

I have said it a thousand times, and I will say it ten thousand more: the one who claims something is ancient bears the burden of proof to show that it is ancient. The burden is not on the person who is not persuaded to show that it is not.

It starts with the plates. No plates, no evidence. The most basic point is that Joseph claimed to translate something. Either that thing was an ancient artifact or it was not. One needs to produce the plates in order to check the translation and to show that it was an ancient artifact. Believers in the literal antiquity of the Book of Mormon cannot surmount that most basic hurdle.

That's where the conversation ends. Despite the fact that people feel dissatisfied with that and want to pursue the conversation further. Still, that is where the conversation ends. A claim that is so unconnected with anything we know about the alleged historical context does not provide us enough, in itself, to confirm it. Plates would have been something. Without plates, what is there? Without something to provide some shred of plausibility to the contents, some corroborating piece of evidence from the New World that, yes, indicates clearly and unambiguously the existence of Lehites, Mulekites, Jaredites, vel sim., there just isn't a conversation to be had. The conversation is roughly on the level of where's Bigfoot.

So, every time apologists insist on going after this issue, they are doing harm to the reasoning skills of their readers, listeners, and viewers.

What the CES letter does have that apologetics for the ancient Book of Mormon do not have is a probable context for the composition and origins of the Book of Mormon. The evidence for 19th century authorship is not only not a stretch; it absolutely works. That is why all of the attacks on the individual points of the CES letter are only superficially damaging to it, while the overall impact of the letter itself, as amateurish and flawed as it is, is so devastating.

And the dishonesty/inaccuracy of these videos is so breathtakingly vertiginous as to be counterproductive and damaging. These guys treat the CES letter as though it were something that it is not. The history of the CES letter matters. Its origin as the research process of a struggling member accounts for a lot of its appeal. Instead, these assholes treat it as though it was a professional hit job from someone who never had an honest intention or a desire to know. So disgusting. I would not want any of the young people in my life to be taught to view people with genuine concerns in this way. The demonization of Runnells is grotesque.

Is there no better way to defend the LDS Church than to be dishonest about criticism? No better way than unfairly lampooning critics and doubting members? These guys make it so hard to be sympathetic to their cause. I sympathize with the struggling members a whole lot. I want them to be happy. If they are happy being LDS, good. I don't want to take that from them. If they are looking for a way to stay in the tent, I want them to be able to find that. But then I look at these efforts from the Mopologetic crowd and what I see makes me sick to my stomach. What is really gained by this hideousness?

[Lem]

And the dishonesty/inaccuracy of these videos is so breathtakingly vertiginous as to be counterproductive and damaging. These guys treat the CES letter as though it were something that it is not. The history of the CES letter matters. Its origin as the research process of a struggling member accounts for a lot of its appeal. Instead, these assholes treat it as though it was a professional hit job from someone who never had an honest intention or a desire to know. So disgusting. I would not want any of the young people in my life to be taught to view people with genuine concerns in this way. The demonization of Runnells is grotesque.

Is there no better way to defend the LDS Church than to be dishonest about criticism? No better way than unfairly lampooning critics and doubting members?

Excellent point. I was really quite surprised to read Scott Gordon define the CES letter like this:

The point of these videos are to show just how ridiculous the CES Letter is. How would you like to leave the Church, possibly destroy your family, uproot your life, and have sleepless nights and emotional pain because of a bad joke? That is what the CES letter has done.

I have yet to see anyone describe the CES letter alone as having taken them out of the church. The typical story is something like 'i read the CESletter, in shock I decided to investigate further, and found that...' etc., etc. Fairmormon is severely underestimating the intelligence of their members with these videos.

[Philo Sofee]

Runnells was asked to write down the questions he had, which is what he did. THAT has never been noted by apologists. Makes ya sorta shake your head doesn't it? They can't just calmly and openly discuss it, they have to "fight" it. It is because the questions are so damning, and it takes apologists breath away there is so much for them to have to defend. I spent, as an apologist, more than my own fair share of nights in tears looking at the computer screen wondering where I was going to get answers to the numerous claims against the church. I suspect it is this that tears up the apologists inside, since they know it is doing to same to all those tens of thousands of people who also read it.
FAIR isn't reading it with the idea that these are requested issues, but that Runnells is an anti-Mormon. THEY turned him into one. He was a full fledged Mormon when the request for him to tabulate his issues was made. And the entire CES system failed to do so! Now think that through. Let that sink into your head for a minute. Runnells was a mere student. The instructor himself utterly failed to even respond with anything. He didn't even try. This is a church failure, not Runnell's fault.
You know who needs to be on THIS message board, is the Quorum of the Twelve. THEY are the ones giving the false pretense that they know Jesus and have the answers through revelation. If they really believed this was factually true, they would not hesitate in the least to truly engage with the world on the Internet. It's like the idiotic Trump Campaign. If they really knew they had evidence of fraud, they would have been the very first on the porch steps of the Supreme Court and would never have left until they were able to present the evidence.
I propose the same with the leadership. Had they real testimonies and knowledge as they claim, superior knowledge to the world's knowledge mind you, they wouldn't even sleep they would be so eager to present such to the world on the worldwide web, not their piddily television conference that only Mormons watch. That's how I see it.

[Philo Sofee]

Kishkumen
Is there no better way to defend the LDS Church than to be dishonest about criticism? No better way than unfairly lampooning critics and doubting members? These guys make it so hard to be sympathetic to their cause. I sympathize with the struggling members a whole lot. I want them to be happy. If they are happy being LDS, good. I don't want to take that from them. If they are looking for a way to stay in the tent, I want them to be able to find that. But then I look at these efforts from the Mopologetic crowd and what I see makes me sick to my stomach. What is really gained by this hideousness?

I am not being facetious when I respond here. We are told, and it is drummed into our fat young heads, and it continues for the entire lifetime of many millions that one must be valiant in their testimony. The language is that of war. Valiant means wielding that Sword bravely, out there on the front lines, screaming, kicking, decapitating heads, even if spiritually.
One cannot speak softly and be understood to be valiant. It is the Battle Hymn of the Republic thinking. To actually do it Jesus' way and be loving is atrociously opposite of being valiant! That would be weakness, not strength. It is the continuation of the War in Heaven, which, on his own admission is why Midgley is such a frickin prick online. Niceness is not insisted upon, nor is truth. War, pressing forward, winning at all costs, and supporting ones own people. There never will be any other way they can respond.
Packer himself said we are in a battle for souls. This is fighting language, not the language of love. Nice is being shamed, warrior muscular man is the image.
FARMS was born with the seeds of its own destruction because they stupidly accept Maxwell's idiotic stance of no more free slam dunks. In other words, get out there and DESTROY their arguments! And they still can't accept the fact that he was so totally wrong, and look where it got them. Had they given a sh*t about Jesus' own method, and teachings of love and care (what I dub the Mr. Rogers' approach) it would have been a vastly different story and outcome with multitudinous conversions, instead of merely winning points for the home team, and the world's scholars making hay of their sham scholarship and ridiculously false conclusions based on false premises and faith promoting rumors.

[Dr Moore]

It's odd that Gordon condemns the existence of "logical fallacy" in the CES Letter, when these TITS videos deploy a massive number of logical fallacies throughout. Chief among them is the pervasive use of straw man arguments in a fast moving juvenile Nibley fest. Followed closely by ad hominems galore. It really is a crap show, this whole production.

[Fence Sitter]

Why is converts who join the church inspite of their family's opposition are admired but members who leave the church contrary to their family's wishes are condemned?

[Philo Sofee]

Why is converts who join the church inspite of their family's opposition are admired but members who leave the church contrary to their family's wishes are condemned?

Because its #notacult

[Dr Moore]

Gordon’s statement that these videos were needed to give youth a resource “in their own language” is deeply troubling on its own.

I wonder if Gordon realizes that the main feature in the “language” of today’s youth centers around intolerance for non-transparency and for obvious deception.

Hint: the problem isn’t that youth today aren’t getting their information about the church from an edgy Nibley-meets-PewDiePie Youtube format. The problem is that the information they can all readily find reeks of non-transparency and obvious deception.

[Dr Exiled]

I guess we can look at FAIR's TITS response as proof that the CES letter is hitting them where it counts, right in the chest area. Grindael, RIP, and Runnells really did a good job in responding to FAIR's attempted take down of the letter. I guess Kevin Christensen and his just believe despite overwhelming evidence paradigm doesn't stack up against the mountains of legitimate issues raised in the letter. It is highly effective as a starting point for further research, research that leads to reality and new paths, away from the fund. I know the parasitic fund doesn't like losing the prime demographic and FAIR is there to dutifully provide confusing non-sequiturs and logical bandwagon, ad hominem fallacies to muddy the issues, in hopes of keeping the tic tock generation and others of the younger generations in the parasitic web. It won't work. Kids are too smart nowadays and the authoritarian Fund values don't jibe with the younger generations.

But what else can FAIR do? It just ain't true.

The parasitic/church fund comparison got me thinking of a South Park episode where it was revealed that Bono was actually crap and that is why he was the crap champion. Maybe the Fund (tm) is the corona virus and that is why Nelson could not foresee any problems it would cause for his Joseph Smith festival he had planned for April 2020? How could he when he is the virus leader?

The Fund is the virus! The Fund is the virus!

[Moksha]

I think these videos would need to be aimed at those who have the gullibility of Trump supporters. Otherwise, even faithful but thinking Mormons would see through them.