If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

The hope I have would be empty if not for the hope of being with family and those I love. And having that wish for everyone...

Everyone? No, you put the lie to that with your posts here, repeatedly and regularly.

And you really shouldn't keep telling others what they believe, all you are doing is reinforcing your reputation as ignorant and unread.

You are boring me. Possibly others.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

*snip
- Doc

Nice of you to drop in and express yourself.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Everyone? No, you put the lie to that with your posts here, repeatedly and regularly.

And you really shouldn't keep telling others what they believe, all you are doing is reinforcing your reputation as ignorant and unread.

You are boring me. Possibly others....

Lol. Mg's Ad Hom go-to. a.k.a., how mg responds when he is caught contradicting himself and/or misstating concepts.

[MG 2.0]

Everyone? No, you put the lie to that with your posts here, repeatedly and regularly.

And you really shouldn't keep telling others what they believe, all you are doing is reinforcing your reputation as ignorant and unread.

You are boring me. Possibly others.

Regards,
MG

Like I said, boring. And untrue. What’s your game?

Do you have anything to offer after all of your presentations of non belief in Mormonism besides ultimate death and extinction? If not, I don’t think your message will resonate with folks that see a grander purpose in the universe rather than the simply mundane.

Mundane, you say? Yeah, like your posts.

What floats YOUR boat? Besides the negative nanny routine.

What grander purpose beyond the finite?

Regards,
MG

[canpakes]

Forgive me, but your concept of hope is pretty narcissistic as it is entirely about your own immortality. Hope need not be grounded on such selfish ideas.

The hope I have would be empty if not for the hope of being with family and those I love. And having that wish for everyone. To hope for a resurrection for all of mankind and each individual receiving a place in the mansions of the Father is the opposite of narcissism and/or selfishness.

In a way, it seems like the scenario that offers the best hope of an equal opportunity for all of mankind after death is firmly rooted in a reality wherein there’s no God, and no afterlife.

[canpakes]

What floats YOUR boat? Besides the negative nanny routine.

What grander purpose beyond the finite?

You can only ever know the finite, even if time is infinite.

I find it much easier to have hope - and to take action based on that hope - for living individuals, while I’m very much still mortal.

I don’t think your message will resonate with folks that see a grander purpose in the universe rather than the simply mundane.

Is the grander purpose then to achieve a state of godhood, so that I can then assemble my own cast of spirit characters, in order to have them repeat the same ‘simply mundane’ mortal experience under my watch?

[Marcus]

You are boring me. Possibly others.

Regards,
MG

Like I said, boring. And untrue. What’s your game?

Do you have anything to offer after all of your presentations of non belief in Mormonism besides ultimate death and extinction? If not, I don’t think your message will resonate with folks that see a grander purpose in the universe rather than the simply mundane.

Mundane, you say? Yeah, like your posts.

What floats YOUR boat? Besides the negative nanny routine.

What grander purpose beyond the finite?

Regards,
MG

More of your best skill, attacking people. Your 'god' must be so proud of you.

[I Have Questions]

Does this also strike anyone else as a profoundly weak and embarrassing argument? Coming from someone as well regarded as Bushman?

I don't think Bushman is making an argument, so much as expressing his personal belief. The only historical support for the plates being real is the Joseph-Smith-written testimony of 11 of his closest friends and family, and the contents of the Book of Mormon. I don't think the total of those has impressed any non-invested scholar or any non-invested department of historical research. Why not? Bernie Madoff provided more testimony and documentary evidence of investment performance than that. The Church also cannot tell a straight story about the plates. In the introduction page the Church declare them as "gold plates". Not golden, not gold-coloured, gold. But everyone examining the situation goes to great lengths to make the case for them not being gold. They were originally the story of the literal ancestors of the native Americans. Then they were the story of the principal ancestors of the native Americans. Now they're the story of some people who were among the ancestors of the native Americans. This constant walking back from the original position is not the hallmark of robust evidence. Even the current Church doesn't believe the original narrative. If Scientoilogisists had a story of gold plates with evidence as per Mormonism, Mormons would be among the first to laugh it out of town. Do Mormons believe any other religions' claim of things akin to Joseph's gold plates tale?

Here's an excerpt from the Book of Mormon that supposedly is evidence of God:

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... tures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/5?lang=eng

If Gold Plates = Book of Mormon = God, then God is a racist, as are those people who testify as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the plates. Bushman is therefore complicit in promoting racism.

Back to the thread's topic...

[honorentheos]

Seemed to me the OP was answered by the end of the first page. I do think PG's response encapsulates the discussion well.

I don’t think it is an argument at all. I think Bushman is just making a rather noncontroversial observation that the majority of adherents in a particular religion believe a traditional account ... .

I agree that Bushman probably wasn't really arguing that one should believe in the gold plates from an angel because it's nice to believe that angels can visit people. He was probably just observing that if you believe an angel gave Smith golden plates, for whatever other reasons, then your belief in the plates yields a nice corollary belief about miraculous things like the plates sometimes happening.

There's nothing wrong with observations like that. Mathematicians often celebrate theorems by recounting how many useful or wonderful other things they imply. They're not suggesting at all that we should believe the theorems because of how nice it would be if they were true. They're just pointing out how nice it is that they are true. It's part of understanding what a theorem means, to appreciate how much it implies.

People aren't just logic engines, however. Our brain hardware probably really just reacts to correlations, with logical implication being implemented awkwardly in software. We may not consciously invoke the pleasant implications of a belief as arguments for the belief, but the more we notice that the belief and its nice implications go together, the more I think we tend, actually, to cherish the belief because of what it implies.

The more we then dwell on how belief in plates (say) and belief in God (say) hang together so nicely, the more I suspect we come to treat the two beliefs as a package, as if each both implied and required the other. Rejoicing in "if plates, then God" slides easily into thinking "God, if and only if plates", because our brains are better at simple association than they are at logic.

You can become really convinced that the expensive rock crystals that you order each month from an online psychic are purifying the vibrations of the oxygen in your bedroom. It may start with just trying and seeing, because if the crystals work, then you'll breathe better. As you start think about the crystals doing their wonderful thing to your oxygen, you get happy thinking about breathing better. Soon the crystals have to work because you need to breathe.

It's difficult to see the discussion improving on that.

[honorentheos]

Forgive me, but your concept of hope is pretty narcissistic as it is entirely about your own immortality. Hope need not be grounded on such selfish ideas.

Not only that, the Mormon view of "hope", as Nelson recently reiterated, is one where he defines the way Mormons will be uplifted in immortality specifically in relation to how non-Mormons-especially those with Mormon family members!!- will be oppressed for all eternity. Who talks like that??

It's really quite creepy how much Nelson seems to relish his vision of how those who reject him will suffer. No wonder Mg thinks his disparagement of those who are different than him is acceptable. His leader has paved the way.

Mormons once had a slogan "families can be forever." Now, a more relevant slogan would be: "Mormons judge and separate families, for all eternity."

With the ominous corollary:

"family members who don't pay up will be missing certain ... parts when their body is resurrected."

MG may see this as a shameless high-five, but I think it's a great point he should consider.