If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

No, I’m not.

It’s not the first time I’ve heard the ‘fix it later’ argument. As if there was something more preferable than living the gospel while in the flesh.

Regards,
MG

Whoosh.

What Nelson defines as "telestial" matches no non-Mormon Christian's definition, nor anyone else. But the world is full of good people who believe in the Atonement. Very few break up families like the Mormons do.

So, yes. Irony. Right over your head.

Marcus, you have very narrow vision as to what is acceptable and not acceptable in regards to the point of view that others might have. You would definitely be in the running for Grand Mistress of Nit Picking. I’ll leave it at that.

Of course the world is full of good people. Of course there are families that struggle with religious differences. But for the majority…by far…of LDS families that live the gospel and believe in the doctrine and live its principles the church is ‘God’s kingdom on earth’ and they find great joy in following the commandments of God and following in the footsteps of Jesus.

Granted, that’s not for everyone. Different strokes for different folks.

The Church has standards and commandments and expectations that are at times onerous and difficult. But most members see that as a positive in the sense that they experience personal growth and spiritual refinement.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Apples and oranges.

Both fruits but very different in some respects.

A good part of this thread has gone into the details as to how the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated are very different than comparing them with Santa Claus, Bigfoot, etc.

I’m not going to rehash all that has been said except to say that this apples to oranges comparison is tenuous at best.

Regards,
MG

? You haven't been reading this thread, then.

Not only have I been reading the thread but I think I have posted the lion’s share of thoughts and postings along with many resources to read.

They, of course, have been discarded.

There will be arguments against actual plates delivered by an angel. I’ve gone over my reasons and made my thoughts known on this matter a number of times during the thread.

But folks seemingly feel as though the matter is not closed to their satisfaction. I’ve said a number of times that I think the cards have been laid out on the table. Others, not in the conversation, can pick which cards to draw.

My question is how long is this ‘game’ going to continue? Does there have to be a winner? In matters concerning faith I think that is very difficult to do. Players are playing by different rules.

All that needs to be done is that certain people stop trying to win vs. calling the game and considering it a draw. That’s about the best we can ever do in discussing matters of faith.

Done?

Do I hear an AMEN!!

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

And the number of ‘nones’ as been exponentially increasing.

It is not surprising that many other Christians do not believe in the Book of Mormon as the word of God.

Might be your most dishonest answer yet. Christian opposition has been pretty constant and has nothing to do with the increase of "nones". What a terrible lie to tell, MG. Are you proud of that lie you just told? I'm very curious.

For Christians, the Book of Mormon has always been heresy and in fact, they share all the same silly fears you do of "nones" and "atheists" -- Dan Peterson, for instance, gets ALL of his contra-secularist information from Evangelical Christians who despise the Book of Mormon.

Indeed you are in a corner so tight on this one your only recourse was to lie. I get it.

[Marcus]

...Not only have I been reading the thread but I think I have posted the lion’s share of thoughts and postings along with many resources to read....

Not even close. But wow, that's some ego.

...There will be arguments against actual plates delivered by an angel. I’osr. ve gone over my reasons and made my thoughts known on this matter a number of times during the thread.

But folks seemingly feel as though the matter is not closed to their satisfaction. I’ve said a number of times that I think the cards have been laid out on the table. Others, not in the conversation, can pick which cards to draw.

My question is how long is this ‘game’ going to continue? Does there have to be a winner? In matters concerning faith I think that is very difficult to do. Players are playing by different rules.

All that needs to be done is that certain people stop trying to win vs. calling the game and considering it a draw. That’s about the best we can ever do in discussing matters of faith.....

Gotcha. You want this to be a discussion about "matters of faith" and you want "certain people" to admit it's "draw." That's not even close to what this thread has been about, and other people are having a very different conversation than what you keep trying to force, so if you'd like to stop what you are doing, then just stop, and let the conversation continue.

Back to the topic. Ihq reposted this, and his point that the changes that have been made undermine the historicity argument are significant:

I don't think Bushman is making an argument, so much as expressing his personal belief. The only historical support for the plates being real is the Joseph-Smith-written testimony of 11 of his closest friends and family, and the contents of the Book of Mormon. I don't think the total of those has impressed any non-invested scholar or any non-invested department of historical research. Why not? Bernie Madoff provided more testimony and documentary evidence of investment performance than that. The Church also cannot tell a straight story about the plates. In the introduction page the Church declare them as "gold plates". Not golden, not gold-coloured, gold. But everyone examining the situation goes to great lengths to make the case for them not being gold. They were originally the story of the literal ancestors of the native Americans. Then they were the story of the principal ancestors of the native Americans. Now they're the story of some people who were among the ancestors of the native Americans. This constant walking back from the original position is not the hallmark of robust evidence. Even the current Church doesn't believe the original narrative. If Scientoilogisists had a story of gold plates with evidence as per Mormonism, Mormons would be among the first to laugh it out of town. Do Mormons believe any other religions' claim of things akin to Joseph's gold plates tale?...

[Gadianton]

The more we then dwell on how belief in plates (say) and belief in God (say) hang together so nicely, the more I suspect we come to treat the two beliefs as a package, as if each both implied and required the other. Rejoicing in "if plates, then God" slides easily into thinking "God, if and only if plates", because our brains are better at simple association than they are at logic.

An important observation. Not sure I think it's what Bushman is going for, but as an important observation on its own.

Actually I need to start an OP to continue as I need to go off topic.

I think PG's observation is a contra-Bushman idea.

[MG 2.0]

And the number of ‘nones’ as been exponentially increasing.

Which is true.

MG:
It is not surprising that many other Christians do not believe in the Book of Mormon as the word of God.

Which is true.

Might be your most dishonest answer yet.

Which is false.

Christian opposition has been pretty constant and has nothing to do with the increase of "nones".

Which is true.

What a terrible lie to tell, MG.

Which is false.

For Christians, the Book of Mormon has always been heresy…

For many, that is true. But not LDS Christians.

…and in fact, they share all the same silly fears you do of "nones" and "atheists"

We’ve had this discussion over on the Secular Folks Should Be Worried thread. I think there is reason to be concerned about the growth in numbers of secularists and nones.

Gadianton:
Indeed you are in a corner so tight on this one your only recourse was to lie.

Which is false.

Gadianton:
I get it.

Not by a long shot.

Gadianton, I think you have been boxed into a corner and see no way out other than mix in lies with a particle of truth. Your little Trump thing was amusing earlier, yet at the same time disheartening. You seem to be a bit more rigid and black and white in your thinking than I had taken you to be.

Almost fundamentalist. In an ungodly sort of way.

By the way, what do have to offer people in regards to hope in a hereafter? Or here for that matter. You seem to be all puffery without substance in regards to things that really matter. Eternal nature of man, etc.

Don’t give up. Your thoughts and input are just as important as anyone else’s. I think I’m understanding you better. You have a harsh edge I hadn’t seen come out as much as it has recently.

I may have touched a nerve.

Looks like this thread isn’t over yet.

If you folks would like me to exit at this point, just say the word. This is all getting a bit tiresome. It would be nice if you didn’t keep dragging me back into it. Especially where we have covered most of the bases.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

...Not only have I been reading the thread but I think I have posted the lion’s share of thoughts and postings along with many resources to read....

Not even close. But wow, that's some ego.

I would welcome you to count the number of posts I’ve made vs. those of others.

No ego attached. Just stating what I believe to be the facts.

And the fact of the matter that I have gleaned from the last number of pages is that you folks have absolutely nothing to offer in regards to hope and faith.

Only death and extinction.

Do I hear an AMEN!!

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Post, or post not. There is no drag.

[Marcus]

... I have gleaned from the last number of pages is that you folks have absolutely nothing to offer in regards to hope and faith...

"You folks." So sad. You must be in such pain.

[Rivendale]

Not even close. But wow, that's some ego.

I would welcome you to count the number of posts I’ve made vs. those of others.

No ego attached. Just stating what I believe to be the facts.

And the fact of the matter that I have gleaned from the last number of pages is that you folks have absolutely nothing to offer in regards to hope and faith.

Only death and extinction.

Do I hear an AMEN!!

Regards,
MG

99% of every living thing has gone extinct. Maybe you should accept this fact and make this world a little better place for those who come after you instead of treating it like a door matt . A place to wipe your feet until the real fun begins.