Is the Mormon Leadership in a hidden panic?

[_desert_vulture]

You haven’t changed my opinion of you with regards to being a typical TBM at this point. I think you are going through a process of reevaluation, but I don't believe your core reasoning at this point is much different than any typical TBM.

You are entitled to your opinion Marg, of course. I disagree with your assessment of me. And I further disagree that you have the right to pronounce a verdict regarding my level of faith. I will openly admit that I don't know a damn thing about you. I am assuming you are female, as "Marg" appears to be a derivative of Margaret, or Margorie, but I am not sure. I don't know your age. I don't know your religious affiliation. I don't even know where you live. I don't know your educational background. In other words, I know nothing about you. I have tried to present you with some knowledge of my background, so that you may have a better picture of who I am, but you seem uninterested. It is almost as if you are clinging to your initial judgment, made in haste, without all of the facts. This seems to be your approach to spiritual things as well.

I submit that you know nothing about me. But yet you are somehow able to come to a final conclusion as to my degree of faithfulness. How can you do this? Are you a seer, a prophet, or a remote viewer? By your own admission, you will make a cursory investigation of an issue and come to a final conclusion, before all of the evidence is in. This is how you have judged me, and seems to be a pattern for how you make judgments about religion. I would caution you that it may be dangerous to conduct your life in this manner. You might reject someone or something that could have a positive impact on your life, simply because you refused to apply true critical thinking, and instead performed a oversimplified emotion-based cursory review of generally known facts, without digging into the details, and really finding out the truth. Good luck to you in your search for truth and happiness.

-DV

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, what's your actual agenda here?

I have no agenda other then to discuss things LDS in an open forum as well as to bring up issues of concern to me.

If you don't believe that Joseph Smith was a legitimate Prophet, and that he was little more than a lecherous sexual preditor when the opportunity presented itself (and that the doctrine of polygamy was, then by extrapolation, little more than a spiritual gloss for his sexual antics),

Did I say that?

may I ask by what means you deal with the cognitive dissonace that must ensue and why you remain a part of the church given your obvious belief that its founding (claimed) Prophet was not even worthy of respect as a decent and morally mature human being?

No you may not ask. Why is it that when someone who remains LDS but has issues with some things are you always ready to send them packing? I ask you sir, how Christ like is that? Remember, it was you who said it is Jesus' Church and one can take as much as little as they wish. Are you back peddling on that. Is your uber Monolithic Mormon mind set winning out again? You asked for sources, and I provided them and you side stepped them by saying none were contemporary and besides I KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE. I am ok with that though, if that is your answer and guess what, it does not send me into an apoplectic fit, like it does you. You know, I can truly say when I was in more of a defender mode I never ever was nasty, rotten and mean to those who had question, like you are. Nor did I eve want to send them packing, like you do.

Inquiring minds would like to know

Too bad

So what I would like to know is how you deal with the Cog Diss that comes from condoning behavior from Joseph Smith that you would most certainly condemn anywhere else while pretending there is no evidence at all of the bad behavior?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[_Lunar Quaker]

This is why I said your words indicate you think very much like a typical TBM.

desert_vulture a TBM? That's laughable. Not even close. We've known each other for over a year now, and I assure you that DV is anything but. He still maintains some belief in God, but that's about it. Is that why you think he's a TBM? To me there is a big difference between a literalist TBM and a guy like DV.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Excuse me but, uh...since not a single primary or secondary historical source (except for the hearsay of the embittered Oliver Cowdery and pure predjudicial assumption) indicates Joseph ever had sex with Alger at all, pehaps you could enlighten us as to what oracular knowledge you possess that Trump's the lack of historical data?

Chauncey Webb (emphasis added):

"[Joseph Smith] was sealed there [i.e., Kirtland] secretly to Fanny Alger. Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house."

Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 34-35 (quoting Wyl, Mormon Portraits: or the Truth About the Mormon Leaders, 1830-1886, p. 57 (Tribune Press 1886)).

[_marg]

DV:

And I further disagree that you have the right to pronounce a verdict regarding my level of faith.

I gave my reasoning DV and you didn’t address or argue against what I said. Here’s my reasoning “You believe a god exists, that he speaks to prophets, that he spoke to J. Smith , that he commanded J. Smith to marry. As long as there is a shred of evidence from the church that J. Smith married Fanny…then your argument and reasoning is that it’s all ethically acceptable. The flaw in this reasoning is there is no evidence that a god exists let alone a god which gives revelations to any man who then can use those revelations for self interest and to claim authority over others. It’s only that you accept this reasoning as your basis that you can turn what typically would be looked upon as ethically wrong into it being acceptable. And you appear to accept these propositions without questioning them. This is why I said your words indicate you think very much like a typical TBM. “

I will openly admit that I don't know a damn thing about you.

What difference does it make whether you know anything about me or what I claim about myself? Just address the actual words and arguments I present.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

My question is, would Levi Hancock have had authority from the state to marry Joseph Smith and FA anyway?

That is a good question. I don't know much about Levi Hancock, and whether or not he claimed to be an ordained minister.

I don't believe him being an ordained minister or not would matter in the case of plural marriages. Polygamy was illegal everywhere the saints lived except in Utah, If I recall correctly. So nobody had the authority to marry Joseph Smith to FA, unless Joseph Smith first divorced Emma.

[_rcrocket]

Excuse me but, uh...since not a single primary or secondary historical source (except for the hearsay of the embittered Oliver Cowdery and pure predjudicial assumption) indicates Joseph ever had sex with Alger at all, pehaps you could enlighten us as to what oracular knowledge you possess that Trump's the lack of historical data?

Chauncey Webb (emphasis added):

"[Joseph Smith] was sealed there [i.e., Kirtland] secretly to Fanny Alger. Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house."

Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 34-35 (quoting Wyl, Mormon Portraits: or the Truth About the Mormon Leaders, 1830-1886, p. 57 (Tribune Press 1886)).

Webb is unreliable. He is Ann Eliza's father. His statement exists in a compilation of anti-Mormon statements. He would have been about 23 at this time and living in Missouri. Compton calls him an unsympathetic witness. His statement is a euphemism for Fanny's pregnancy, and Compton points out there is no corroboration for this claim .

[_desert_vulture]

DV:

And I further disagree that you have the right to pronounce a verdict regarding my level of faith.

I gave my reasoning DV and you didn’t address or argue against what I said. Here’s my reasoning “You believe a god exists, that he speaks to prophets, that he spoke to J. Smith , that he commanded J. Smith to marry. As long as there is a shred of evidence from the church that J. Smith married Fanny…then your argument and reasoning is that it’s all ethically acceptable. The flaw in this reasoning is there is no evidence that a god exists let alone a god which gives revelations to any man who then can use those revelations for self interest and to claim authority over others. It’s only that you accept this reasoning as your basis that you can turn what typically would be looked upon as ethically wrong into it being acceptable. And you appear to accept these propositions without questioning them. This is why I said your words indicate you think very much like a typical TBM. “

I will openly admit that I don't know a damn thing about you.

What difference does it make whether you know anything about me or what I claim about myself? Just address the actual words and arguments I present.

Whatever.

[_mentalgymnast]

But then it's not true, so it really doesn't matter, does it? ;-)

MG: Why are you so settled in your outlook towards the Book of Mormon? Are there any so called evidences that you believe have some validity? Does everything point towards the Book of Mormon being bogus?

Would you consider answering these three questions?

As I said, the Book of Mormon is still around. It has had the honor of promoting a great deal of controversy, but no resolution one way or the other. As I've mentioned before, there are those that have worn out a good portion of their lives in trying to prove the Book of Mormon an absolute fraud. Dale Broadhurst, for example. I remember a number of years ago spending a good deal of time looking at his pages dealing with similarities between the Spalding manuscript and the Book of Mormon. They were quite bothersome at the time. Still are. But they're not conclusive.

At this point in time we have somewhat of a stalemate. There are legitimate and worthy reasons for reasoned belief or at least the plausibility of reasoned belief in the Book of Mormon.

There's a lot riding on the Book of Mormon isn't there? It is indeed keystone. Other issues take a backseat.

Why are you so dogmatic in your thinking? My guess is I've seen at least as much as you have in regards to those things that are out there which could sway one away from belief in the Book of Mormon and the church. Rather than jump ship, however, I believe there are reasons to straddle the fence, so to speak, rather than hopping down on the side of absolute, dogmatic, and irreconcilable belief that the Book of Mormon is a fraud.

Regards,
MG

[_Seven]

Excuse me but, uh...since not a single primary or secondary historical source (except for the hearsay of the embittered Oliver Cowdery and pure predjudicial assumption) indicates Joseph ever had sex with Alger at all, pehaps you could enlighten us as to what oracular knowledge you possess that Trump's the lack of historical data?

Chauncey Webb (emphasis added):

"[Joseph Smith] was sealed there [i.e., Kirtland] secretly to Fanny Alger. Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house."

Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 34-35 (quoting Wyl, Mormon Portraits: or the Truth About the Mormon Leaders, 1830-1886, p. 57 (Tribune Press 1886)).

Webb is unreliable. He is Ann Eliza's father. His statement exists in a compilation of anti-Mormon statements. He would have been about 23 at this time and living in Missouri. Compton calls him an unsympathetic witness. His statement is a euphemism for Fanny's pregnancy, and Compton points out there is no corroboration for this claim .

Hi Rocket,
I am curious of the evidence that Chauncey Webb is an ureliable witness. From the words of his daughter Ann Eliza, one of Brigham Young's wives:

"Being accounted among the specially "faithful," my parents were among the first to whom polygamy was taught by Joseph Smith himself, and my father was commanded by him to live up to his privileges, and to take another wife. "
from the book "Wife No. 19"

Webb was a devout Mormon and good friend to Joseph Smith.