2nd Watson Letter just found!'

[_Doctor Scratch]

Who is Carla Ogden?

Sometimes I have my assistant send things for me - so the things bear her name, but they are from me. Almost never, however, would there not be an indication that it was intended from me.

Yes, and this is a special problem given that the connection to Watson was argued in print by Hamblin! The closest thing to "evidence" that the apologists' have is Brent Hall's cover letter, where he claims that he spoke with Watson on the phone.

I stand all amazed! All these years DCP and his ilk have 'cried wolf' about a so-called 2nd Watson letter, and it turned out to be bogus. DCP will never be able to remove all 'the egg on his face' from this latest apologist boner. What a tool ....

Rollo! Where you been, ol' buddy? As to your post: yes, this is a huge, colossal embarrassment for the apologists---one of the worst ever, I daresay. DCP and Hamblin may yet produce an actual Watson Letter, complete w/ signature and FP letterhead, but until they do, it seems clear that they have been perpetuating a real whopper. Kudos to Greg Smith for blowing the lid on all of this.

[_Doctor Scratch]

My Malevolent Stalker and his groupies are now dancing a jig over at the Compound, joyfully predicting that I'll never be able to recover from this disaster -- whatever "this disaster" is supposed to be.

The "disaster" is that you have been lying to us about the 2nd Watson letter for some 15 years. You worked so hard to convince that you're actually a decent, honest guy, and -POOF-! There it all goes. How do you expect anyone to believe your account of Mopologetic funding and reimbursement when your story about the 2nd Watson Letter has turned out to be such a whopper?

[_Nimrod]

Hey, Dodge-and-Weave Dan,

Thank you for complimenting me as one of Dr. Scratch's groupies (I hope Dr. Scratch would so consider me). I am just here at the Compound joyfully dancing a jig. After all, 'tis the season to be jolly, at least until FARMS can produce the elusive--no, now, the mythical--2nd Watson letter. Until then, the only thing on FP letterhead and signed by Watson is the 1990 letter that puts the Book of Mormon hill Cumorah in New York State.

[_Ray A]

The thick polttens, alright, to quote Brent (Metcalfe). All I can surmise (along with Brent), is that there are some serious “memory issues” going on here. According to DCP:

I've never before heard of a fax sent to Brent Hall, and know nothing whatever about it. I saw a letter from Michael Watson. I can only report what I remember seeing.

Brent Hall joined the FARMS Board of Directors in 1991 (along with DCP and Hamblin).

We are also pleased to welcome three new members of our board of directors, Brent Hall, William J. Hamblin, and Daniel C. Peterson. They have contributed significantly to F.A.R.M.S. over the past few years and we look forward to their further involvement (we will print profiles in an upcoming issue).

In 1992 was listed as:

is development director for the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies.

.

So Brent Hall never told DCP about the fax? A fax that supposedly came from the FP (via Carla Ogden)?

But he “saw a letter from Michael Watson”.

Not sure how good DCP’s memory is. In the same thread:

The text of the fax, however, seems to be identical to the letter that I saw and that is quoted in full in the FARMS Review.

As Dr.Scratch earlier pointed out, it was originally published in JBMS, not the Review, unless they refer to all FARMS publications as “The Review”.

I think Brent Metcalfe summed it up well, after a ROTFL from DCP:

After all the years of convoluted claims about this, um, "letter"—me, not so much.

[_Ray A]

One last observation before I quit for the morning.

Bro. Watson seems to have been speaking on his own understanding of the matter, and not as an official declaration of Church policy.

The First Presidency letter:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
October 16, 1990
Bishop Darrel L. Brooks Moore Ward Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake 1000 Windemere Moore, OK 73160
Dear Bishop Brooks:
I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.
The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

Sincerely yours, (signed) F. Michael Watson Secretary to the First Presidency

(Emphasis added)

Watson was certainly not “speaking on his own understanding”. “The Brethren” would have to be the First Presidency. Or Watson was being "loose with the truth" and taking authoritative licence not his.

[_Doctor Scratch]

My best guess---in line with what Gad said earlier---is that the apologists managed to get this fax from Sis. Ogden, and then they bent the truth in print and on the messageboards in order to make it seem like it had the same authority as the 1st Watson Letter.

I hope that Wiki Wonka and the other FAIR people get around to fixing that FAIR entry on this. Wonka had presented him/herself as actually caring about truth and accuracy.

[_Ray A]

So just to summarise:

Did the First Presidency identify the New York "Hill Cumorah" as the site of the Nephite final battles?

Answer: Yes.

[_Ray A]

I'm not sure if it's Wiki Wonka or "Dr. Smith" who needs to correct this, but I think the latter:

The First Presidency's secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding, and then at the direction of the First Presidency later clarified/corrected his statement to indicate that while many Latter-day Saints have expressed opinions about the location of Cumorah (or other Book of Mormon geography issues), the Church has no official geography. No revelatory basis exists for any geographical scheme outside of the Book of Mormon text itself.

Critics often cite the first letter, without citing the second which corrects it.

(Emphasis added)

The first letter was approved by "the Brethren", as it clearly states.

Or perhaps they could add a qualifier that "after talking with a FARMS staffer the Brethren conceded to the scholars".

[_Nimrod]

I'm not sure if it's Wiki Wonka or "Dr. Smith" who needs to correct this, but I think the latter:

The First Presidency's secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding, and then at the direction of the First Presidency later clarified/corrected his statement to indicate that while many Latter-day Saints have expressed opinions about the location of Cumorah (or other Book of Mormon geography issues), the Church has no official geography. No revelatory basis exists for any geographical scheme outside of the Book of Mormon text itself.

Critics often cite the first letter, without citing the second which corrects it.

(Emphasis added)

The first letter was approved by "the Brethren", as it clearly states.

Or perhaps they could add a qualifier that "after talking with a FARMS staffer the Brethren conceded to the scholars".

Ray A,

That is a curious quote from the FAIRwiki. The author elevates an unsigned fax from an unknown staffer as "the direction of the First Presidency", while throwing under the bus as "according to his own understanding" an official letter signed by the Secretary to the First Presidency. That can only be described as cafeteria scholarship--pick and choose what fits your preconceived notions.

[_Ray A]

That can only be described as cafeteria scholarship--pick and choose what fits your preconceived notions.

They need critics to keep them focused on the ball. The whole entry is a shemozzle, from start to finish.