Former Stake President managing MormonThink

[_Chap]

... your position is idiotic. Just like your new request for irrefutable proof is. Do you know nothing about Mormonism? You can get that any time you want by speaking to God about this. Mormons don't believe Joseph Smith because of what he claimed, but because God backs him up.

What? You can talk to Tobin's deity "any time you want"?

Funny, I seem to remember Tobin being pressed some time ago on the question of why everybody wasn't getting information from Tobin's deity all the time. The answer was along the lines that you had to act exactly right in order to get a response, and years might go by if you did not scratch this supposedly communicative deity exactly where he itched.

So I could get an answer myself right now?

Hello Tobin's deity. I gather that it is really important for me to know whether Mormonism is true or not. If it IS true, please tell me now, and I shall adjust my life accordingly ... hello?

(Crickets chirping ... never mind, he'll be along in a minute.)

[_hobo1512]

... your position is idiotic. Just like your new request for irrefutable proof is. Do you know nothing about Mormonism? You can get that any time you want by speaking to God about this. Mormons don't believe Joseph Smith because of what he claimed, but because God backs him up.

What? You can talk to Tobin's deity "any time you want"?

Funny, I seem to remember Tobin being pressed some time ago on the question of why everybody wasn't getting information from Tobin's deity all the time. The answer was along the lines that you had to act exactly right in order to get a response, and years might go by if you did not scratch this supposedly communicative deity exactly where he itched.

So I could get an answer myself right now?

Hello Tobin's deity. I gather that it is really important for me to know whether Mormonism is true or not. If it IS true, please tell me now, and I shall adjust my life accordingly ... hello?

(Crickets chirping ... never mind, he'll be along in a minute.)

You noticed that too?

I don't know if my Verizon plan has enough minutes for me to wait for an answer from Tobin's diety.

[_Darth J]

I would like to thank Tobin for sharing some of the insights he has obtained from the wonderful, super space alien Star Trek god that communicates with him.

Unfortunately, the Tobin Star Trek god has not informed Tobin that "That's stupid!" is not a meaningful response to serious plot holes in the faith-promoting narrative---even if Tobin selectively alternates between Mormonism and Tobinism.

It is a valid assumption that Joseph Smith's life-changing theophany as a teenager would have one consistent version told by the person who experienced it. Changing substantial details of a story is the primary indicator that the story is a fabrication. This is particularly so when we have nothing but the story teller's word for it. Joseph Smith changed his age at which he supposedly experienced the First Vision, the reason(s) he went in the woods to pray, and the substance of what happened. Pointing out that the Gospels are not reliable history only digs you in deeper, since the Bible must be true for Mormonism (or even Tobinism) to be true.

As to Tobin's point 2, given that Joseph Smith's prior career was claiming magical powers to find buried treasure, his proclivity "to embellish or tell interesting stories" about his experiences with the Golden Plates does not help his credibility. Again, taking Joseph Smith's word for it is a necessary condition for Mormonism to be true. So when a former glass looker turned prophet embellishes or tells "interesting" stories about supernatural events and divine intervention, this is a red flag, to say the least.

Despite Thews trying to set him straight on another thread, Tobin doggedly refuses to acknowledge the history behind the claims about the Urim and Thummim. Then again, objective reality is not the forté of the Tobinist faith. As to the magic rock in the hat, it's really not so amazing that rational people are skeptical that the exact same magic rock Joseph Smith unsuccessfully tried to use in hunting for buried treasure became the divine mechanism for translating the Book of Mormon.

Tobin's naked assertion that the ancient Egyptian religion was a corruption of Abraham's teaching Mormonism to "Pharaoh, King of Egypt" (see also: "El Presidente, President of Mexico" and "Thespian, Actor of Theater"), which was "restored" by Joseph Smith, probably does not occur to critics because there is no reason whatsoever to believe that.

However, I am gratified to learn that the voices in your head will confirm that the religion Mommy and Daddy raised you in is more or less true, regardless of verifiable reality.

By the way, did we ever figure out why Tobin has not started his own church yet, since the Star Trek god has told him the LDS Church is corrupt, as well as giving Tobin a greater understanding of the Book of Mormon than Joseph Smith had?

[_Tobin]

I don't know if my Verizon plan has enough minutes for me to wait for an answer from Tobin's diety.

Actually, it is an essential belief in God that you are lacking here. I'm simply pointing out to you that either God is capable of answering you, or your God does not exist. Supposing, of course, that you believe in God, which I doubt highly since this is a common failing of most Mormon critics.

[_hobo1512]

Actually, you have failed repeatedly to respond or understand what I've repeatedly pointed out to you. Here we have many examples of eye-witnesses that tell VARYING stories about many of the details of Christ's life.

You're comparing apples and oranges you dip wad.

1 person, telling 9 different versions of the same lie versus 4 persons telling their story from their own perspective.

Are you saying holy hot crotch joe had at least 9 perspectives on the same issue, or event? He couldn't even get the number of personages right from version to version. Don't you think that is a key issue, or are you going with the illogical leap that all of them are correct?

Actually, I'm just pointing out that your position is idiotic. Just like your new request for irrefutable proof is. Do you know nothing about Mormonism? You can get that any time you want by speaking to God about this. Mormons don't believe Joseph Smith because of what he claimed, but because God backs him up.

But yet, you haven't provided ANY proof, irrefutable or not. I know plenty about Mormonism, hence pointing out the illogical leaps and mental gymnastics that one has to go through in order to be a "good" Mormon.

God backs him up? LOL.. ok, where are the plates? Where is the DNA proof? Where is the proof of these so called ancient civilizations? Don't you think the Mormon god would have helped ya'll out with those by now?

You really shouldn't come to a battle of wits unarmed......just sayin

[_hobo1512]

I don't know if my Verizon plan has enough minutes for me to wait for an answer from Tobin's diety.

Actually, it is an essential belief in God that you are lacking here. I'm simply pointing out to you that either God is capable of answering you, or your God does not exist. Supposing, of course, that you believe in God, which I doubt highly since this is a common failing of most Mormon critics.

Ok, I just spit on my keyboard from laughing so hard.

Let's just say I don't believe in the Mormon god, or the god/deity that you believe in.

So, let's go a step further. If I don't believe in your god, he won't answer me or my questions?

Keep going Tobin. I haven't had this much fun since why me got hot and bothered over light cotton.

Are you touching yourself? Do you need to talk to your bishop?

[_Res Ipsa]

So, let's go a step further. If I don't believe in your god, he won't answer me or my questions?

I believe the answer is "yes."

[_hobo1512]

So, let's go a step further. If I don't believe in your god, he won't answer me or my questions?

I believe the answer is "yes."

That don't seem quite right.

So what you're saying is, if I pray to the Mormon god to tell me if all of this is true, he won't answer, just because I don't' believe in him at that point?

There's some issues going on there don't ya think?

[Guest]

Actually, it is an essential belief in the advanced, super space alien Star Trek Tobin god that you are lacking here. I'm simply pointing out to you that either it is a foregone conclusion that most of the religion Mommy and Daddy raised you in is true, or you're not hearing the same voices in your head that I am. Supposing, of course, that you believe that the voices in your head telling you that the Tobinist version of Mormonism is true come from the advanced, super space alien Star Trek Tobin god, which I doubt highly since this is a common failing of most Mormon critics.

Fixed.

[_hobo1512]

Ok, if I spit soda on my keyboard one more time, someone's going to get it.