Washington Post: Mormon Church has misled members on finance

[_Mormonicious]

The Answer is Now Clear

The Washington Post says the Church of Jesus Christ has billions. Thank goodness

"As a nation, and especially as individuals, we would all do well to try harder to model this behavior."

www.deseret.com/opinion/2019/12/17/2102 ... k-goodness

STOP PAYING YOUR TITHING UNTIL YOU HAVE A SUFFICIENT FOR YOUR NEEDS FUND!!!! How wonderful, how marvelous, how enriching, how simple, how easy!

[_Gadianton]

that's a pretty low bar for identifying "talent". But I'm thinking of legal and accounting more than I am investors. I'm thinking of the visionary principles Enron came up with: mark-to-market accounting etc. Enron knew what it wanted to be at the highest levels. In contrast, the Church's money is all in black budget operations known only to a few that aren't even at the top. Those with "talent" spoken of are good and educated employees exercising their talent withing very small domains. I'm talking about talent in overall corporate strategy, in the novel interpretations of tax law and so on -- all that connective tissue that makes for a novel investment machine hidden beneath a charity.

Basically, it's heavily implied to me by the fact that "so few" know anything, that any visionary principles are probably recommendations coming from big outside consultants / law firms who deal with the Presiding Bishop and his handful of cronies.

[_fetchface]

I think this is proof positive that the brethren don't believe the second coming will be here anytime soon. Every Mormon knows that the second coming will destroy the existing social order. Money will probably be worthless. Property deeds most likely null and void. That 100B would disappear in an instant.

Nope, this wasn't saved for the second coming. This was saved because the brethren don't really have faith that the second coming will be here any time soon.

[_fetchface]

In regards to the question of members’ expectations regarding the use of their tithing, my understanding is that the expectation that it be used for more charitable purposes is a dissident/ex-Mormon sentiment. City Creek definitely focused discontent of this kind, but I think most members have trusted that the LDS Church uses their tithes for the purposes that God has charged the leaders with.

It is when people start to question the Church that the purpose of tithing becomes more of a concern. So long as the members believe it is God’s money, sent to his appointed leaders, it is only a matter of personal sacrifice out of faith.

It is only a sample size of one, but my TBM wife said that if the allegations are true, the brethren did something morally wrong. Her expectations were that her tithing was not being hoarded. Of course, she definitely has above-average moral reasoning skills for a member of the church!

[_Dr Exiled]

I think this is about power and control. The church is in it for the long haul. They want what the catholic church had during the dark ages and that is probably the long term goal for these authoritarians. When I was a young lad, I remember being in a sunday school class where a high up in the missionary department was teaching the class. Also in attendance was one of the many church accountants and they were speculating on how the united order would easily take over the world in 50 to 100 years if membership growth continued and fidelity to the cause remained in tact and wise investments were continually made. They also speculated on how this goal could be accomplished with the current 10% requirement and not total consecration. I think this type of talk goes on in the halls of 47 E. South Temple. They worship their savings.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I think this is about power and control. The church is in it for the long haul. They want what the catholic church had during the dark ages and that is probably the long term goal for these authoritarians. When I was a young lad, I remember being in a sunday school class where a high up in the missionary department was teaching the class. Also in attendance was one of the many church accountants and they were speculating on how the united order would easily take over the world in 50 to 100 years if membership growth continued and fidelity to the cause remained in tact and wise investments were continually made. They also speculated on how this goal could be accomplished with the current 10% requirement and not total consecration. I think this type of talk goes on in the halls of 47 E. South Temple. They worship their savings.

That is an interesting interpretation. You are right that, even from a hardcore TBM perspective, the idea that the money is for Jesus and the Second Coming is ridiculous. I think that Fetchface's remark is right on the money (pun intended):

Every Mormon knows that the second coming will destroy the existing social order. Money will probably be worthless. Property deeds most likely null and void. That 100B would disappear in an instant.

But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise: if the money *is* for the Second Coming, what role will it play? What will Jesus buy with the money? Is the idea that the Church is going to hoard all of it, and then Christ himself will distribute it out to his disciples as he sees fit? Will it be needed to rebuild the Earth after Christ "baptizes" it in fire? Do the apologists not have an answer for this one?

So that brings us back to your point, Exiled. Maybe this *is* just pure, raw, unadulterated ambition--hubris, even. It's the Church trying to secure its place amongst the country's--if not the world's--most powerful and influential religions. The leaders at the top don't care about getting rich (so it seems, and so we've been told, anyhow); but I don't seen any Latter-day Saint or Mopologist trying to defend against the charge that the Brethren have a lust for power. If anything, the folks at "SeN" would seem to support the notion that the Church ought to be trying to accumulate as much power and influence as possible.

[_RockSlider]

I think this is about power and control. The church is in it for the long haul. They want what the catholic church had during the dark ages and that is probably the long term goal for these authoritarians. When I was a young lad, I remember being in a sunday school class where a high up in the missionary department was teaching the class. Also in attendance was one of the many church accountants and they were speculating on how the united order would easily take over the world in 50 to 100 years if membership growth continued and fidelity to the cause remained in tact and wise investments were continually made. They also speculated on how this goal could be accomplished with the current 10% requirement and not total consecration. I think this type of talk goes on in the halls of 47 E. South Temple. They worship their savings.

That is an interesting interpretation. You are right that, even from a hardcore TBM perspective, the idea that the money is for Jesus and the Second Coming is ridiculous. I think that Fetchface's remark is right on the money (pun intended):

Every Mormon knows that the second coming will destroy the existing social order. Money will probably be worthless. Property deeds most likely null and void. That 100B would disappear in an instant.

But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise: if the money *is* for the Second Coming, what role will it play? What will Jesus buy with the money? Is the idea that the Church is going to hoard all of it, and then Christ himself will distribute it out to his disciples as he sees fit? Will it be needed to rebuild the Earth after Christ "baptizes" it in fire? Do the apologists not have an answer for this one?

So that brings us back to your point, Exiled. Maybe this *is* just pure, raw, unadulterated ambition--hubris, even. It's the Church trying to secure its place amongst the country's--if not the world's--most powerful and influential religions. The leaders at the top don't care about getting rich (so it seems, and so we've been told, anyhow); but I don't seen any Latter-day Saint or Mopologist trying to defend against the charge that the Brethren have a lust for power. If anything, the folks at "SeN" would seem to support the notion that the Church ought to be trying to accumulate as much power and influence as possible.

I don't think their ambitions venture much more than a few years ahead. The money is almost a thorn in their side. They need the tithing for temple control. The worthiness elitism scale is foundational to keeping the herd happily grazing. They can't be found dropping billions on the poor to unload the cash as that would discourage donations, so secretly hide it under the mattress and hope no one ever discovers the cursed pile of doe. If they were to truly follow the doctrine of the tallans for multiplying them, why do they not also model the law of tithing as well and drop 10% on the poor continually? Just can't do it and reveal how much they really have.

[Guest]

In regards to the question of members’ expectations regarding the use of their tithing, my understanding is that the expectation that it be used for more charitable purposes is a dissident/ex-Mormon sentiment. City Creek definitely focused discontent of this kind, but I think most members have trusted that the LDS Church uses their tithes for the purposes that God has charged the leaders with.

It is when people start to question the Church that the purpose of tithing becomes more of a concern. So long as the members believe it is God’s money, sent to his appointed leaders, it is only a matter of personal sacrifice out of faith.

It is only a sample size of one, but my TBM wife said that if the allegations are true, the brethren did something morally wrong. Her expectations were that her tithing was not being hoarded. Of course, she definitely has above-average moral reasoning skills for a member of the church!

Yes, the hoarding is on its own outrageous. Moth and dust doth corrupt.

I hadn't realised we were Egyptian peasants lining the walls of sarcophagi.

[_Dr Exiled]

I think this is about power and control. The church is in it for the long haul. They want what the catholic church had during the dark ages and that is probably the long term goal for these authoritarians. When I was a young lad, I remember being in a sunday school class where a high up in the missionary department was teaching the class. Also in attendance was one of the many church accountants and they were speculating on how the united order would easily take over the world in 50 to 100 years if membership growth continued and fidelity to the cause remained in tact and wise investments were continually made. They also speculated on how this goal could be accomplished with the current 10% requirement and not total consecration. I think this type of talk goes on in the halls of 47 E. South Temple. They worship their savings.

That is an interesting interpretation. You are right that, even from a hardcore TBM perspective, the idea that the money is for Jesus and the Second Coming is ridiculous. I think that Fetchface's remark is right on the money (pun intended):

Every Mormon knows that the second coming will destroy the existing social order. Money will probably be worthless. Property deeds most likely null and void. That 100B would disappear in an instant.

But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise: if the money *is* for the Second Coming, what role will it play? What will Jesus buy with the money? Is the idea that the Church is going to hoard all of it, and then Christ himself will distribute it out to his disciples as he sees fit? Will it be needed to rebuild the Earth after Christ "baptizes" it in fire? Do the apologists not have an answer for this one?

So that brings us back to your point, Exiled. Maybe this *is* just pure, raw, unadulterated ambition--hubris, even. It's the Church trying to secure its place amongst the country's--if not the world's--most powerful and influential religions. The leaders at the top don't care about getting rich (so it seems, and so we've been told, anyhow); but I don't seen any Latter-day Saint or Mopologist trying to defend against the charge that the Brethren have a lust for power. If anything, the folks at "SeN" would seem to support the notion that the Church ought to be trying to accumulate as much power and influence as possible.

From a witness to what the brethren have said in private, to their Mormon (hire your family member or neighbor nepotism), I believe that they want power and will sacrifice monetary excess in the here and now in exchange for a seat at the world table. The conversations I heard as a young tyke in the ward that had an apostle, a few 70, and the presiding bishop, was that they consecrated their time and talents to the church to make it strong in the world, to have a seat at the table and perhaps dominate it some day. It seems to harken back to the Council of 50 and what their aims were then, but hush hush .....

[_Tchild]

A very interesting story that has unfolded.

One hundred billion dollars. Woowee! Is 100 billion really all that much money in this age of Federal Reserve quantitative easing and easy money? Seems like a lot of folks, institutions and sovereign wealth funds have that sort of change nowadays. Hell, the Qualtrics guys just picked up 9 billion for their sale to SAP and there were just two of them.

I tend to take an academic view of the situation. Here we have an institution, with a hierarchical set-up that is immune to any corrupting influences that can arise in family dynasties, or with the short to medium range investment strategies of corporations. Here we have an entity that can build, hold and invest capital with a time frame in the centuries with no need for transparency, the payment of taxes or clamoring investors wanting their quarterly dividends.

I have to admit, I do view Joseph Smith as a type of prophet, not in the manner believers literally hold him to be, but a prophet in the sense of rolling out a religion that would evolve into an institutional powerhouse spanning the centuries - the Warren buffet of religions.

100 Billion dollars...I stand all amazed!