Radio Free Mormon: Magic and the Book of Mormon (We Need Dan Vogel's Help!)

[_Shulem]

Hey Chap baby, get a load of the fact that even when Jesus Christ speaks directly through Joseph Smith he can't quite get it right and stumbles over himself:

And it shall come to pass, that he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out of the church, and shall not receive again that which he has consecrated unto the poor and the needy of my church, or in other words, unto me

The phrase "in other words" happens multiple times in the Doctrine and Covenants and in the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith's writings which is an indicator that it was Smith's wording (not Jesus) babbling and correcting himself. Think about it. Why would perfect Jesus speaking through the Divine Holy Ghost need to say "in other words" as if to self correct and clarify because he failed to express it perfectly in the first place? Why does God even need to say "in other words" if he is supposedly perfect? It doesn't make sense. Joseph Smith is caught in the act trying to play God.

[_Chap]

Hey Chap baby, get a load of the fact that even when Jesus Christ speaks directly through Joseph Smith he can't quite get it right and stumbles over himself:

Wondrous, Shulem boy!

I confess that I have never given D&C the attention it deserves, apart from the lovely bit where the Lord goes on about the terms of a stock issue like a 2-bit small town lawyer.

So (pardon my ignorance) was D&C dictated too? Presumably under direct divine inspiration, though with no magic rock involved?

[_Shulem]

So (pardon my ignorance) was D&C dictated too? Presumably under direct divine inspiration, though with no magic rock involved?

You know, Smith was not an accomplished writer at all and hardly any of his revelations are in his own hand. I'm thinking that virtually all if not all of the D&C was dictated to scribes as was virtually all of the material Smith rambled off during his prophet pretending career. Only a very small amount of material is actually in Smith's handwriting and as RFM noted in his latest podcast about Smith's polygamous marriage to a minor child, signatures were particularly rare.

[_Simon Southerton]

I understand RFM’s logic about the hat being unnecessary because it is an unnecessary element in the trick. If a magician could really cut a person in half, he/she wouldn’t need a box.

I don't understand this comment at all. The stone and the hat were both essential elements of the trick. Everyone back then believed the stone was the magical element. It was the diversion, an essential part of the trick. The hat was essential, because it convinced those around him that it helped the conman see the writing on the stone.

However, RFM also understands that magicians don’t like repeating their tricks because then the observer(s) will know what to look for. I believe this applies to the speculated text-in-hat-theory.

RFM gave an excellent response to this criticism in his second podcast. Nobody even suspected there was a magic trick happening so they weren't looking. When we watch a magic trick these days that's all we are looking for.

I’m not saying that it could never happen the way RFM suggests, but I seriously doubt it could be the method Joseph Smith relied on. Too many angles; sometimes the room was full of people moving about in the room. Smuggling the tiny text into the hat and changing pages constantly is a problem.

There were obviously long periods when there weren't many people around. He didn't need to constantly change his notes. He didn't have the entire text in the hat. All he needed were notes for most of it. For the brief parts of the "translation" where he may have needed full text (Isaiah, Matthew etc) he could easily have ensured others were not around.

The hat wasn’t introduced as part of the translation trick, but was part of his practice as a treasure seer. So it wasn’t superfluous like a magic box.

I don't understand this point. This sounds like an argument FOR the hat being used in the same way he used it for his treasure digging. The hat was used to make people think he could see the glow from the stone. There was no glow so the hat wasn't necessary to see it. But the hat was essential for making people believe the stones had magic properties and that Smith was a seer.

The text of the Book of Mormon bears evidence that it was an oral text, rather than a written one.

Example...

As far as the fear of being destroyed kept people from looking into the hat because the stone was in it: David Whitmer said he looked but couldn’t see anything. Harris said he was afraid to look because he would want to see God, and no man could see God and live. Nevertheless, he switched the stone in the hat to test Joseph Smith. So I don’t think that would have kept people from looking into the hat.

There is no doubt Harris was scared that he would be struck dead if he looked at the stone in the hat. He stated this several times. He didn't need to look at the stone in the hat to change it. He could have been looking in the other direction or had his eyes closed at the time.

Dan appears to be assuming that RFM's argument was that Smith used the hat trick so he could simply read the entire text of the Book of Mormon in the bottom of the hat. That is not what RFM claimed. It's clear that for large parts of the Book of Mormon, it was an oral story made up as he went along. But surely, brief notes at the bottom of the hat would have been extremely helpful for him to create a consistent story and to help him pick up from where he left off. Its hard to believe that he was that motivated and hard working that he memorised swathes of Isaiah and Matthew. There are also hundreds of examples where he quotes or closely quotes other verses from the Bible. Again, brief cheat sheets would have helped.

Was it just a coincidence that the hat was white? White top hats were uncommon. In fact I had never seen a white stovepipe hat before the RFM episode. I had seen plenty of black ones. If the purpose of the hat was to shut out light why would he not choose a black hat?

Why did Joseph trick people into believing that if they pressed their face into the hat and looked at the stone, they would be struck dead? Did he just do this for sport? Of course not. It was essential that people continued to believe that the hat's job was to keep light out. If he hadn't warned people off, it would have been inevitable that someone would have stuck their face in his hat. If they did that for long enough, and their eyes adjusted, the jig would have been up.

[_Shulem]

DAN!

You're going to have to think about this some more and provide additional commentary. I have to agree with Simon Southerton in that your statements above don't seem fleshed out -- or make sense from a stone cold sober perspective. Maybe you had a few glasses of wine that night with dinner? lol

Anyway, I would love to hear more. Your response reminds me (long time ago) of a console TV and switching channels (via dial) trying to find a clear channel to watch.

Well. Yeah.

:neutral:

[_Dan Vogel]

Hi Simon!

Sorry for the delay, but I’m a busy guy.

I don't understand this comment at all. The stone and the hat were both essential elements of the trick. Everyone back then believed the stone was the magical element. It was the diversion, an essential part of the trick. The hat was essential, because it convinced those around him that it helped the conman see the writing on the stone.

You misunderstand my response because you probably didn’t understand RFM’s reasoning from magic. RFM the trick is in the hat because the hat was an unnecessary element in the performance—like the magician’s box. I disagreed with that on the same grounds you name. The stone in hat come together from Joseph Smith’s treasure seeking days, long before Joseph Smith ever thought that it could be used to hide some sort of text. Similarly, the hat Joseph Smith used was the same as a treasure seer and translator.

RFM gave an excellent response to this criticism in his second podcast. Nobody even suspected there was a magic trick happening so they weren't looking. When we watch a magic trick these days that's all we are looking for.

No one has to suspect a trick. It’s the repetition of loading the gimmick in close quarters over and over, all day long, day after day that increases the chance for discovery. But this is where the analogy to magic breaks down.

There were obviously long periods when there weren't many people around.

This is an unknown to us, but, more importantly, it was unknown to him who could come in at any time: Emma, one of the Whimters. Emma said, “when acting as his scribe he would dictate to me hour after hour ... O[liver]. Cowdery and J[oseph]. S[mith]. wrote in the room where I was at work.”

He didn't need to constantly change his notes. He didn't have the entire text in the hat. All he needed were notes for most of it.

This seems confused to me. He has notes for most of it, but doesn’t have to change notes? How is this different than what I said?

“I’m not saying that it could never happen the way RFM suggests, but I seriously doubt it could be the method Joseph Smith relied on.”

If he had notes and not a complete text, why couldn’t he refresh his memory before he sits to dictate?

For the brief parts of the "translation" where he may have needed full text (Isaiah, Matthew etc) he could easily have ensured others were not around.

Cowdery was still there. You are talking about several pages in one instance and many pages in another, perhaps torn from a very small Bible.

I think these kinds of wholesale borrowings from the KJV were done in the open as an aid to translation. Joseph Smith perhaps read from the KJV while making changes as he went or simply marking a Bible with his inspired corrections, as he would subsequently do with the entire Bible.

I don't understand this point. This sounds like an argument FOR the hat being used in the same way he used it for his treasure digging. The hat was used to make people think he could see the glow from the stone. There was no glow so the hat wasn't necessary to see it. But the hat was essential for making people believe the stones had magic properties and that Smith was a seer.

Sure, the hat was part of Joseph Smith claim of how the stone worked. Not all seers used a hat. Some just held the stone to their eyes. Joseph Smith put the stone in the hat before he supposedly needed the hat to conceal papers. The hat belongs independent of its possible use in a trick. However, the magic box isn’t needed to cut a person in half, but without it the magician couldn’t create the illusion. The point is that RFM’s analogy doesn’t fit. Joseph Smith may very well have used the hat as RFM suggests (albeit in a limited way), but using the analogy to magic doesn’t make it more so.

We also know Joseph Smith could do the trick without the hat. Even you have concluded that there wasn’t always something in the hat, but when there was something in the hat, it was only notes. The dictated text was supplied by Joseph Smith’s talent and imagination. In such case, the hat was only a minimal aid and doesn’t really offer a viable explanation to how Joseph Smith was able to produce his text. Hence, I said: “I’m not saying that it could never happen the way RFM suggests, but I seriously doubt it could be the method Joseph Smith relied on.”

There is no doubt Harris was scared that he would be struck dead if he looked at the stone in the hat. He stated this several times. He didn't need to look at the stone in the hat to change it. He could have been looking in the other direction or had his eyes closed at the time.

If Harris didn’t look at the stone, how did he find one that he thought looked like Joseph Smith’s stone? He looked at the stone very closely, but he didn’t put his face into the hat and try to see in the darkness.

Dan appears to be assuming that RFM's argument was that Smith used the hat trick so he could simply read the entire text of the Book of Mormon in the bottom of the hat. That is not what RFM claimed. It's clear that for large parts of the Book of Mormon, it was an oral story made up as he went along. But surely, brief notes at the bottom of the hat would have been extremely helpful for him to create a consistent story and to help him pick up from where he left off.

I’m not sure exactly what RFM believes. He didn’t state it clearly. He mentioned notes being used. However, in making an extended argument that it was a trick that depended on the hat, and suggesting that Joseph Smith stressed the danger of looking into the stone as a means of insuring that no one looked into the hat, RFM seems to imply that it was the method Joseph Smith heavily relied on.

Its hard to believe that he was that motivated and hard working that he memorised swathes of Isaiah and Matthew. There are also hundreds of examples where he quotes or closely quotes other verses from the Bible. Again, brief cheat sheets would have helped.

Or, it could show that Joseph Smith was intimately familiar with the KJV, which is borne out in his revelations and letters. As a missionary, any missionary for that matter, I had hundreds of passages memorized. Joseph Smith only had the Bible to memorize, we had four standard works. Not to mention the missionary lessons word-for-word, which included Joseph Smith’s first vision account. For the fun of it, I memorized Genesis 1-2, while tracting. We were 19-21, but Joseph Smith was 23 when he was dictating the Book of Mormon and he was even more immersed in a Bible culture than we were.

Was it just a coincidence that the hat was white? White top hats were uncommon. In fact I had never seen a white stovepipe hat before the RFM episode. I had seen plenty of black ones. If the purpose of the hat was to shut out light why would he not choose a black hat?

The darkness in the hat is determined by what material the hat is made from: silk, wool, straw, white beaver-fur. I doubt Joseph Smith’s was silk. Here is a photo of Lewis C. Bidamon, apparently wearing a white beaver-fur top hat.

Why did Joseph trick people into believing that if they pressed their face into the hat and looked at the stone, they would be struck dead? Did he just do this for sport? Of course not. It was essential that people continued to believe that the hat's job was to keep light out. If he hadn't warned people off, it would have been inevitable that someone would have stuck their face in his hat. If they did that for long enough, and their eyes adjusted, the jig would have been up.

Perhaps they would see that it did not work. Or, maybe they might see something that he didn’t like, as when Samuel Lawrence saw the spectacles with the plates. Martin Harris gave the reason he didn’t look, and Whitmer said he looked but didn’t see anything.

[_Shulem]

Okay, thanks for the clarifications DAN. I was able to better tune into what you where thinking.

Okay, I admit it wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear but the bottom line is that I needed to hear what you wanted to say. So with that, I'm more educated than ever. I will continue to keep an open mind on these matters and think about things.

Key to what you stressed was that young Joseph (teen boy) had his stone and magic hat for treasure seeking years before he ever learned to dictate/translate ancient text from gold plates. It was part of his persona -- his act or the way he thought to connect with spiritual realms. The stone in the hat was used for his treasure seeking and in that the idea of reading notes therein to perform some kind of trick to find treasure simply wouldn't be conducive or needful in order to perform the act. The reading of notes or torn pages from a small Bible would have been a later invention for the Book of Mormon.

Memorize whole chapters of the KJV of Isaiah? That may be stretching things but it is possible. One thing is for sure, Joseph did NOT dictate wholesale chapters of KJV Isaiah from the hat through the so-called gift of God because those things were actually written on gold plates. It's not possible that the KJV was on the so-called plates. It's impossible. Isaiah in the Book of Mormon is THERE because Joseph Smith somehow transposed it from the KJV whether by memorization or by biblical pages conveniently contained in his hat for easy reading -- or as you say, an open aid with a KJV on the table in plain view.

Are there any references to Joseph Smith reciting whole chapters of the Bible during his younger years? I know the Smith family read the Bible and that was a major part of their life but were memorization skills pertaining to the Bible ever discussed or mentioned?

[_Shulem]

FINDING THE LOST PIN IN THE HAY

It was NOT real magic!

It was not the Spirit of God!

Tricky Joe had means whereby he could see through the white hat into the grass. Perhaps a trick flap or a hole in the top of the hat in which he could open and see as clear as day.

According to Harris the stone in the hat was the means by which Smith found the pin and he couldn't have done it any other way.

I watched him closely to see that he did not look to one side

Harris was watching like a hawk to make sure Joseph kept his face in the hat and didn't peek out to look with his actual eyes.

He reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.

So, how did Joseph do it? There has to be a logical explanation. It wasn't by real magic. It wasn't by the Spirit of God because we all know that the Spirit of God can't spell "Shulem" and wrongfully identifies a mortal king's name from that of an immortal goddess. So if it wasn't real magic and if it wasn't the dumb Spirit, then what was it? Did Joseph just luckily reach out into the grass and pick that pin up out of sheer luck? Hell no, that's not going to fly either.

He had to be peeking, somehow. That WAS the trick. RFM, where are you?! There is no other logical explanation. Joseph somehow used his natural eyes to find that pin and pick it up out of the grass. There is simply no other logical explanation. Either he looked with his natural eyes or he used a divine gift as a real seer. Those are the choices! Now, you idiots better decide which one you want to go with because I'm telling you right now you have no other choice!

Dan?
RFM?

What say ye, boys.

[_Shulem]

Finding your stupid pin in a pile of hay and shavings is easy compared to having to re-translate what you've lost! That was the only copy!

[_Simon Southerton]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your responses.

I don't understand this comment at all. The stone and the hat were both essential elements of the trick. Everyone back then believed the stone was the magical element. It was the diversion, an essential part of the trick. The hat was essential, because it convinced those around him that it helped the conman see the writing on the stone.

You misunderstand my response because you probably didn’t understand RFM’s reasoning from magic. RFM the trick is in the hat because the hat was an unnecessary element in the performance—like the magician’s box. I disagreed with that on the same grounds you name. The stone in hat come together from Joseph Smith’s treasure seeking days, long before Joseph Smith ever thought that it could be used to hide some sort of text. Similarly, the hat Joseph Smith used was the same as a treasure seer and translator.

RFM explicitly stated numerous times the hat was an essential part of Joseph Smith's magic trick. I don't disagree with that. The changeable stone (seer stone or U&T) was the misdirection. Where am I not understanding RFM's reasoning?
I'm not sure why you assume Joseph couldn't be hiding notes in his hat during his treasure digging days. Clearly, that's where he learned his tricks. Given he had his head in a hat for long periods, it's easy to imagine him one day realising "Hey, I can see in here. I could hide detailed notes on the layout of Hyrum Gullible's farm and wow them with my intimate knowledge of where their lost hammer is." You acknowledge he was a conman and he was conning farmers for years. It's not a huge leap to connect his treasure digging trick with his translation trick

RFM gave an excellent response to this criticism in his second podcast. Nobody even suspected there was a magic trick happening so they weren't looking. When we watch a magic trick these days that's all we are looking for.

No one has to suspect a trick. It’s the repetition of loading the gimmick in close quarters over and over, all day long, day after day that increases the chance for discovery. But this is where the analogy to magic breaks down.

I think you are exaggerating the risks. These people had implicit faith in him. If he had brief notes concealed in his hat at the beginning of the day he probably only needed to shuffle their order maybe 4 or 5 times a day. If his hat wasn't on the table it would have been on his head. They took regular breaks for lunch, morning and afternoon tea (legal then), a walk, the loo etc. In my view you are underestimating his skill as a conman.

There were obviously long periods when there weren't many people around.

This is an unknown to us, but, more importantly, it was unknown to him who could come in at any time: Emma, one of the Whimters. Emma said, “when acting as his scribe he would dictate to me hour after hour ... O[liver]. Cowdery and J[oseph]. S[mith]. wrote in the room where I was at work.”

As implied above, he would have had plenty of opportunities to shift the notes around, the few times a day that he needed to

He didn't need to constantly change his notes. He didn't have the entire text in the hat. All he needed were notes for most of it.

This seems confused to me. He has notes for most of it, but doesn’t have to change notes? How is this different than what I said?

What I meant was that he could have had brief notes that he used as a guide for his narrative for much of the Book of Mormon. He could have changed them a few times each day

“I’m not saying that it could never happen the way RFM suggests, but I seriously doubt it could be the method Joseph Smith relied on.”
If he had notes and not a complete text, why couldn’t he refresh his memory before he sits to dictate?
I guess Smith could have found it easier to have his notes on hand the entire time he was making up his story. It certainly helps explain how he was able to pick up from exactly where he left off.

For the brief parts of the "translation" where he may have needed full text (Isaiah, Matthew etc) he could easily have ensured others were not around.

Cowdery was still there. You are talking about several pages in one instance and many pages in another, perhaps torn from a very small Bible.

I think these kinds of wholesale borrowings from the KJV were done in the open as an aid to translation. Joseph Smith perhaps read from the KJV while making changes as he went or simply marking a Bible with his inspired corrections, as he would subsequently do with the entire Bible.

To me this introduces an avoidable risk. From my recollection the Isaiah quotes are not identical to the Bible verses. People could have wondered how he could have come up with these supposedly inspired changes without the aid of his seer stone. If he didn't need the seer stone then they might suspect he was tricking them.

I don't understand this point. This sounds like an argument FOR the hat being used in the same way he used it for his treasure digging. The hat was used to make people think he could see the glow from the stone. There was no glow so the hat wasn't necessary to see it. But the hat was essential for making people believe the stones had magic properties and that Smith was a seer.

Sure, the hat was part of Joseph Smith claim of how the stone worked. Not all seers used a hat. Some just held the stone to their eyes. Joseph Smith put the stone in the hat before he supposedly needed the hat to conceal papers. The hat belongs independent of its possible use in a trick. However, the magic box isn’t needed to cut a person in half, but without it the magician couldn’t create the illusion. The point is that RFM’s analogy doesn’t fit. Joseph Smith may very well have used the hat as RFM suggests (albeit in a limited way), but using the analogy to magic doesn’t make it more so.
I believe that if he ever used hidden notes in his hat, it was most likely during both his treasure-digging and translation days.

We also know Joseph Smith could do the trick without the hat. Even you have concluded that there wasn’t always something in the hat, but when there was something in the hat, it was only notes. The dictated text was supplied by Joseph Smith’s talent and imagination. In such case, the hat was only a minimal aid and doesn’t really offer a viable explanation to how Joseph Smith was able to produce his text. Hence, I said: “I’m not saying that it could never happen the way RFM suggests, but I seriously doubt it could be the method Joseph Smith relied on.”
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think he could have easily concealed the notes in a hidden sleeve inside his hat.

There is no doubt Harris was scared that he would be struck dead if he looked at the stone in the hat. He stated this several times. He didn't need to look at the stone in the hat to change it. He could have been looking in the other direction or had his eyes closed at the time.

If Harris didn’t look at the stone, how did he find one that he thought looked like Joseph Smith’s stone? He looked at the stone very closely, but he didn’t put his face into the hat and try to see in the darkness.
OK. I will be clearer. Martin Harris was afraid to stick his head in the hat to look at the stone. That was the act Joseph Smith warned him about. Everyone knew what the stone looked like because they all saw it. I would not be surprised if they had all handled it. But they were clearly instructed not to stick their face into the hat and look at the stone. Again, this clearly implies Smith didn't want them to discover they could actually see with their head in his hat

Dan appears to be assuming that RFM's argument was that Smith used the hat trick so he could simply read the entire text of the Book of Mormon in the bottom of the hat. That is not what RFM claimed. It's clear that for large parts of the Book of Mormon, it was an oral story made up as he went along. But surely, brief notes at the bottom of the hat would have been extremely helpful for him to create a consistent story and to help him pick up from where he left off.

I’m not sure exactly what RFM believes. He didn’t state it clearly. He mentioned notes being used. However, in making an extended argument that it was a trick that depended on the hat, and suggesting that Joseph Smith stressed the danger of looking into the stone as a means of insuring that no one looked into the hat, RFM seems to imply that it was the method Joseph Smith heavily relied on.
I thought RFM was fairly clear. He said he could have used "manuscript notes" in the bottom of the hat.

Its hard to believe that he was that motivated and hard working that he memorised swathes of Isaiah and Matthew. There are also hundreds of examples where he quotes or closely quotes other verses from the Bible. Again, brief cheat sheets would have helped.

Or, it could show that Joseph Smith was intimately familiar with the KJV, which is borne out in his revelations and letters. As a missionary, any missionary for that matter, I had hundreds of passages memorized. Joseph Smith only had the Bible to memorize, we had four standard works. Not to mention the missionary lessons word-for-word, which included Joseph Smith’s first vision account. For the fun of it, I memorized Genesis 1-2, while tracting. We were 19-21, but Joseph Smith was 23 when he was dictating the Book of Mormon and he was even more immersed in a Bible culture than we were.
I agree that he knew his Bible very well and could have memorised large parts of it. He also could easily have concealed notes in the bottom of his hat to help create the Book of Mormon. The bottom line is he was a conman. He was treasure-digging to make money for little effort. It seems to me that a conman is far more likely to take the easy route to creating the Book of Mormon.

Was it just a coincidence that the hat was white? White top hats were uncommon. In fact I had never seen a white stovepipe hat before the RFM episode. I had seen plenty of black ones. If the purpose of the hat was to shut out light why would he not choose a black hat?

The darkness in the hat is determined by what material the hat is made from: silk, wool, straw, white beaver-fur. I doubt Joseph Smith’s was silk. Here is a photo of Lewis C. Bidamon, apparently wearing a white beaver-fur top hat.
I think the fact that it was an "old white stovepipe hat" is significant for a number of reasons.
It's easy to imagine a conman coming up with all kinds of ways to allow enough light into the hat. He would have been aiming for just enough light to allow him to read after taking a little while for his eyes to adjust but not enough light to allow someone to notice the trick straight after putting their head in his hat. If it was old and made of beaver fur it could have been worn thin in parts to allow enough light through. Since he had his head in the hat for long periods, he needed the hat to breath. He could have made small holes to allow air movement like they do with many hats these days. These could have been obscured by the fur.
Its also interesting that he chose a stovepipe hat, which was taller than regular top hats of the period. Its extremely hard to focus the eyes in a short hat, but it gets easier as the hat gets taller.

One thing I am interested in finding out is whether Joseph Smith used his hat outside when they were treasure-digging. Virtually all of these digs were at night. If there are reports of him using his hat in the dark then he would not have been reading anything. But from the reports I have seen so far it appears he was inside the Smith house when he was giving instructions about where to dig.