Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Dwight]

These are excellent points, Consig. However, it still doesn't change that the man who held power, real power, in this situation asked her to go away and ended up getting what he wanted professionally. I get the problematic behavior by Rosebud, especially the manipulations and scheming, buty JD still used his position/influence to get what he wanted. This doesn't change the fact that Rosebud is a schemer and psycho.

- Doc

I doubt John wanted to be asked to resign and have to reapply. That the outcome mostly matched what he wanted seems incidental. If Rosebud had taken the same deal to resign and reapply it seems the board would have gone for that. Then Rosebud derailed that. So was it caused by John’s desires or just matched John’s desires?

[Lem]

There is arguably a case of sexual harassment here, which the Open Stories Foundation board and JD handled very, very badly, possibly even illegally. Sadly, it seems there is not much that can be done now, other than to release information. That's been done.

Is there a statute of limitations we're dealing with here? I don't see why Rosebud couldn't sue the Open Stories Foundation, especially since they developed a post hoc policy that essentially plays into her hands, for damages.

- Doc

Good point about the post hoc policy. Every bit of it that I read seems like yet another object lesson stating 'this happened, don't do it again.'

But who knows about a lawsuit, although I can empathize with a victim who doesn't want to put herself out there in a legal case. What I can't empathize with is the apparent decision to fight this with weird underground 'talking to Dehlin' through our board. No matter what she is going through mentally, someone needs to advise her to let this weird online stuff go.

[Kishkumen]

I feel like John Dehlin is being used as a means to an end to forward a larger point about the relationship between power and sex. If Rosebud could gather enough supporters, Dehlin could be used as a spring-board like many of the me-too men. Unfortunately the affair is just too garden-variety to really gain any momentum even in circles that care about it. He's just another crappy man who cheats on his wife.

Yeah, I think the first sentence really nails how JP and Rosebud want to be perceived: they are fighting for the Victims and Survivors out there. All of them. Their fight is the good fight. The right fight. Those opposed to their fight are automatically labeled knuckle-draggers, ignoramuses, uninformed, and even misogynists. This is pure ideologically-driven dribble that masks their obvious motives of revenge. This is a knock-down, drag-out, insider civil war between allies and advocates to determine who is the truly righteous person to represent the cause. Just ignore the fact that it has been germinated in deeply personal resentments and conflicts, and you will see that you, too, should join Rosebud, JP, KK, and others in slaying the pseudo-ally JD.

I did spend some time at Rosebud's blog where she talks about being an advocate for victims and it didn't take long before I found her inveighing against JD as a bad victim advocate because, well, you know . . . .

I really wish we didn't have to watch this BS unfold. It is so nauseatingly gross. This is one reason why I don't hang out with activists and spend my energy voting my beliefs instead of jockeying for position inside a group of activists. The worst fights are not between activists on different sides. They are between activists on the same side.

[Dwight]

If Rosebud had ceased and desisted as JD asked, there is no reason to suspect the board would ever have gotten involved.

Rosebud could still have been working for Open Stories Foundation doing the thing she loved if she had just backed down when asked and cooled her jets.

Sexual harassment can be a two-way street.

I didn't see this from earlier in the thread, until someone quoted it. So if Rosebud had submitted to the requests of her superior to stop bothering him after he decided that their affair had ended, she would have been ok?

The two way street part I assume refers to the idea that 1) a superior can have an inappropriate sexual relationship with a subordinate, and 2) when the superior decides it's over the subordinate can "decide" to go along, because she knows if she speaks up she will lose her job?

The presumptions in this statement about how women should 'behave' just sickens me.

There are different ways to reverse this, superior female and employee male, which party wants to end it. I would say as soon as one side wants to end a relationship then the other needs to accept it is over.

[Kishkumen]

You see, this is a fever dream fan fiction that JP has concocted where JD IS this evil, manipulative, mastermind who gets off on power over women. He even implies that JD's apparent ED was due to Rosebud not being the submissive type that JD supposedly targets. It's creepy, it's cringey, and I can't get on board with it. Not to mention incredibly unhealthy.

I think you are missing some nuance and complexity there, Kukulkan. Better go read more.

[consiglieri]

I think the record shows Rosebud got fired because she continued to ask for a sexual and romantic relationship after JD refused.

If Rosebud had ceased and desisted as JD asked, there is no reason to suspect the board would ever have gotten involved.

Rosebud could still have been working for Open Stories Foundation doing the thing she loved if she had just backed down when asked and cooled her jets.

Sexual harassment can be a two-way street.

These are excellent points, Consig. However, it still doesn't change that the man who held power, real power, in this situation asked her to go away and ended up getting what he wanted professionally. I get the problematic behavior by Rosebud, especially the manipulations and scheming, buty JD still used his position/influence to get what he wanted. This doesn't change the fact that Rosebud is a schemer and psycho.

- Doc

Fair enough.

I can understand two married people falling in love with each other.

I can understand an affair ensuing.

I can understand JD breaking it off and not wanting to work alongside Rosebud anymore.

I can understand Rosebud wanting to stay in control of the Mormon Stories Facebook groups she has worked so hard to organize and develop.

I can understand JD and Open Stories Foundation not wanting to leave an increasingly erratic Rosebud in charge of these channels of communication to MS listeners and contributors.

I can understand JD and Open Stories Foundation trying to manage the situation by having both JD and Rosebud resign from the board and apply as 1099 employees, said new employments designed to keep JD and Rosebud not working alongside each other and keeping Rosebud from being in charge of communications.

All of this I can understand.

What I can’t understand is why widely disparate parties would find this an effective brickbat with which to destroy JD nine years after the fact.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

You see, this is a fever dream fan fiction that JP has concocted where JD IS this evil, manipulative, mastermind who gets off on power over women. He even implies that JD's apparent ED was due to Rosebud not being the submissive type that JD supposedly targets. It's creepy, it's cringey, and I can't get on board with it. Not to mention incredibly unhealthy.

100%. This is, outside of what seems to be a pretty clear cut case of a person using his power to get rid of Rosebud, pure character assassination. We also have to put all of this in context. This was a rinky dink operation, still is really, and the aggrieved employee was doing some Facebooking and booking some gigs. She had 8 months with the foundation. Big damned deal, Rosebud. Move the “F” on, and quit moaning about what you think you lost. It does more harm and damage to you than it does to Dehlin. Dehlin is more popular than ever, and you're just failing at life and taking James Patterson with you.

But you won't. This is your hobby. This is your passion. And you're going to go nowhere while he soars. That's on you.

- Doc

[Craig Paxton]

Oh Great another Rosebud Thread.

For the record I have been pretty absent from this board and I have not read any of this thread...but let me take a very wild guess...Rosebud still has no credibility and still refuses to offer any credible evidence of her wild claims of sexual harassment and if in fact anything happened was a willing participant.

How close to the mark am I?

She is promising to post a lot of evidence against JD on a new website. We’re all on pins and needles. Ahem.

Will there be a stained blue dress at some time in the future? https://images.app.goo.gl/YNjt33MCryQLb82x5

[consiglieri]

You see, this is a fever dream fan fiction that JP has concocted where JD IS this evil, manipulative, mastermind who gets off on power over women. He even implies that JD's apparent ED was due to Rosebud not being the submissive type that JD supposedly targets. It's creepy, it's cringey, and I can't get on board with it. Not to mention incredibly unhealthy.

100%. This is, outside of what seems to be a pretty clear cut case of a person using his power to get rid of Rosebud, pure character assassination. We also have to put all of this in context. This was a rinky dink operation, still is really, and the aggrieved employee was doing some Facebooking and booking some gigs. She had 8 months with the foundation. Big stupid deal, Rosebud. Move the “F” on, and quit moaning about what you think you lost. It does more harm and damage to you than it does to Dehlin. Dehlin is more popular than ever, and you're just failing at life and taking James Patterson with you.

But you won't. This is your hobby. This is your passion. And you're going to go nowhere while he soars. That's on you.

- Doc

Living well is the best revenge.

[Kishkumen]

I didn't see this from earlier in the thread, until someone quoted it. So if Rosebud had submitted to the requests of her superior to stop bothering him after he decided that their affair had ended, she would have been ok?

The two way street part I assume refers to the idea that 1) a superior can have an inappropriate sexual relationship with a subordinate, and 2) when the superior decides it's over the subordinate can "decide" to go along, because she knows if she speaks up she will lose her job?

The presumptions in this statement about how women should 'behave' just sicken me.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as a false accusation? Are you saying there is no way a "subordinate" could blackmail a "superior" with a false claim?

Honestly, I think you are reading a whole lot into consig's post that is not there. He is not suggesting that an actual victim of sexual harassment should just keep their mouth shut to keep their job. I think he is saying that, to the contrary, it is possible for a person to play victim in order to blackmail a "superior."

And, yes, I agree with consig that it is possible.