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_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Gazelam wrote:Hey, if you want to use the scriptures to encourage appropriate attitude and viewpoints, good for you.

But in your opinion, outside of the psych wards where guys are smearing their feces on the wall, how much of this psyco crap is for real?

How many of these soccer moms who go on tuesdays really need it?


Gaz, you're not God. You cannot see into other people's hearts. You don't know them. So don't try to judge them according to how they say they feel. You're not them. How arrogant you are. So long as you can post sermons and pictures of those men in SLC you worship, you're fine. But once people don't validate you, don't listen to you, you get all hung up and start being nasty. It's not Christian, it's not indicative to what the Mormon church is supposed to represent. Stop it.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Gazelam wrote:Because it was around this time that people like Timothy Leary and others like him began encourageing people to "free themselves". And people were listening. Whether this stemmed from the second world war and the introduction of foreign cultures in such a large degree across such a large number of americans, or simply because throwing away the old for the "new" due to the fashion of the times, I don't know. What role television played I don't know.

In any case it just seems like around that time all the treasured values of the society before this were tossed away.

What I mean by images is: When you think of images of the 30's, 40's and 50's, how do these comapre to images you picture of the 60's and 70's?


LOL! In the 30s, 40s, 50s, my people weren't seen unless we were in positions of servitude or hanging from trees. In the 60s and 70s, we were seen fighting for the right to be equal to people of decrepit mentalities like you.

I'm all for order and respect within families, for love and support. But suppressing onesself behind Beaver Cleaver is not the answer. And Gaz, you watch too much TV and listen to too many conference talks. One day try to use your own brain. It might hurt for a few days, maybe weeks, but once you get the hang of it, you'll understand what's going on around you better.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Re: Jersey

Post by _Sam Harris »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Gazelam wrote:Sex and violence.

Which do you think is more explicit? Which do you think is /was more readily available to the general public?


Gaz,

I hate to do this to you, really. I think that sex and violence have just about always been readily available to the general public. Try the Old Testament.

Jersey Girl


I have to agree, and this is a student talking. But Gaz hasn't really read the Old Testament, methinks, he just browses the manuals the church gives him once every four years...typical closed minded TBM
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Gaz...

My disdain is that I can't in any way imagine going in to someone and bitching and moaning about personal problems and issues. It's like calling on the Elders quarum to have them help you move. Maybe If your a single mom, but a grown man with sons? Its the same thing in my opinion, clean up after yourself. don't call me with your non-sence, and I wont call you. If theres a real issue that's one thing, but non-sence is non-sence.


This is sad.

Seems you feel the only ones for whom it is appropriate to seek help are single moms.

I'm not exactly sure where you got this idea but I find it disturbing and a reason more men do not seek help for some of their difficulties.

The truth is, your attitude is exactly that which will keep unhealthy cycles continuing, keep men from learning, and limit relationships from healing.

Guess what... there are men who can admit they need help. There are men who are willing to grow and learn. There are men who are wanting to improve relationships, overcome addictions, and heal horrible pain. These are the strong men.

It is the less healthy men with ego issues, who can't admit difficulties, who think they need to present this perfect facade, who can't allow anyone to see who they really are, who must deny any problems at all costs so as not to look less than wonderful, who think a real man should just suck it up.

And why you think therapy is about bitching and moaning is beyond me...

I would inivite you to reflect on those great men who have sought and received help.

~dancer~


Very eloquently put, TD
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Mister Scratch wrote:How about "practicing without a license."


I wasn't aware that what I intend to practice requires a license. Could you point to a specific element of my "practice" that would require a licence? Certainly, I don't want to do anything that requires a license, that is unless I have a license.

by the way, Wade: I saw over on the fittingly named MADboard where you compared RfM to the KKK. This seems like an unfortunate move on your part. Just think: right when you were on the cusp of launching this "proactive" endeavor of yours, you pull a major boner such as that and put your foot in your mouth. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Now, all someone has to do is cite your post and it's essentially game over for Wade's Mormon Shrink Messageboard.


If people are looking for excuses not to heal and grow, but rather to dismiss and be defensive, then I am sure my KKK comparision (which I specified as relating only to behaviors and attitudes that qualify as bigotry) will come in rather handy.

However, those who rightly view it as a wakeup call, and who wish to find effectual and healthy (non-bigotted) ways to heal and grow, may find it useful as well.

In fact, given your "credentials", perhaps you would be a great candidate to test out my methods as a "fringe" member. We can get to the bottom of what has been driving your persistant criticism of the leadership of the Church. In the process, your trained minded can prevent me from stepping over the line of ethics if that ever happens, and you can learn firsthand whether my approach is viable or not. What do you say? Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I say "go for it," at the very least so I can determine whether your approach is laughable or not.


I am pleased to hear it. However, if she declines, I am wondering if you would be open to participating in her stead? We can try and get at what is driving your seeming obsession with MAD/FAIR and some of its prominate participants, if not also your hightened concerns about the SMC and Church courts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Sam Harris
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Greetings Wade

Post by _Sam Harris »

As far as your idea is concerned, I'm with the sentiment that you will have to be a bit more neutral with regards to your approach to others in this new forum you're thinking of. I'm also with those who feel that one must see this to believe it, given your reputation. But hey, I'm not out there trying to heal anyone other than myself and those who come to me individually asking for help. But if you're turning a new leaf, kudos!

Um, as far as your guiding principles, I like the second version, the headings especially when compared to the first. But from my POV, I think that the "you" focus should be toned down just a smidgen. I understand what you are getting at, and I think that it is all good when you make a person responsible for their own destiny. I'm so glad I did that for myself, it raised my self esteem so much. I'm a different woman. But I think that in the beginning, giving people a chance to tell their story is good. Once they start repeating and going in circles, then step in and let them know that this is the past, and now you have the choice to paint out a better future for yourself.

Who knows, I might just refer relatives to your site. That is, if the ingrates can learn to use a computer.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Oh, one more thing. I think that iamlistening.org is a very gentle, inviting title...hopefully it's still available.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_wenglund
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Re: Greetings Wade

Post by _wenglund »

GIMR wrote:As far as your idea is concerned, I'm with the sentiment that you will have to be a bit more neutral with regards to your approach to others in this new forum you're thinking of. I'm also with those who feel that one must see this to believe it, given your reputation. But hey, I'm not out there trying to heal anyone other than myself and those who come to me individually asking for help. But if you're turning a new leaf, kudos!

Um, as far as your guiding principles, I like the second version, the headings especially when compared to the first. But from my POV, I think that the "you" focus should be toned down just a smidgen. I understand what you are getting at, and I think that it is all good when you make a person responsible for their own destiny. I'm so glad I did that for myself, it raised my self esteem so much. I'm a different woman. But I think that in the beginning, giving people a chance to tell their story is good. Once they start repeating and going in circles, then step in and let them know that this is the past, and now you have the choice to paint out a better future for yourself.

Who knows, I might just refer relatives to your site. That is, if the ingrates can learn to use a computer.


As I have mentioned to others, I certainly understand the apprehension.

And, as far as what you said about the "you" focus, I think you are right to some degree. I am currently formulating some basic procedure (step-by-step on how to proceed through the process) which should address your concern. My hearing their "story" as they currently see things, is, for a variety of important reasons, a key beginning step. Adherence to the Guiding Principles will be something they transition into as things proceed.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Gazelam wrote:My disdain for psycology is the victim mentality that accompanies alot of it. Not to mention the needless medication in many cases.

But hey, that's just me. If it works for some, then there ya go.

Wonder how all the ritalin kids will be as adults?


You have some valid points, but again your ignorance is showing. A good therapist will slowly and effectively turn a person out of "victim mode". You are right that this mentality is ineffective. I deal with a lot of people in that mode, but I do know as a former victim, that your attitude is cruel and heartless. I would not be alive if left to the attitude to one such as you.

Medication is not to be used for the rest of one's life in most cases. That last time I checked, one in ten people suffers from a bout of depression (a minimum of two weeks) in their lifetime in this country. That number may have doubled. For a person with a history and family history of depression, long term meds may be necessary. But this shouldn't be the case for all.

As far as ritalin? I like South Park's take on it, though you're probably too holy to watch such stuff. Well, the teachers once tried to tell my dad and stepmom that my brother had attention deficit disorder. I told them that this was wrong, all Bennie had was ass-beating deficit disorder. The problem continued until sadly my brother lost both of his parents. We had about two years of war with him, as is understandable for a person who lost both parents within three years. But he now understands that he can only go as far as he takes himself, and that though we love him and back him in all his aspirations, we're past the days of diapers and baby wipes, and if he wants something he needs to be responsible enough to get it. Sometimes that message had to be "hammered" in. He's now a typical teenager. Without ritalin.

Oh, and I just got put back on Paxil today. I didn't really like the doc's prescription, but when your body does what mine does when dealing with anxiety, you listen to your docs. I'm balancing two jobs, education, and a crazy family that won't leave me the hell alone. In your eyes I'm a whiner. In my eyes, I get up each day and do what I have to and then some...and that makes me a winner...and it makes me think you suck Gaz.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

wenglund wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote: I would suggest that she visit RfM, where she would be sure to find lots of people who have experienced much the same feelings she has.


How does that suggestion put the Guiding Principles (which you claim to be a "shining example" of) into action?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Here, let's walk our hypothetical "Suzi" through your "Guiding Principles" vis-a-vis RfM:

This process of healing and growth is about:

1. You. Since the only person that you ultimately have the power and right to change is you, then you will be the subject of whatever change needs to take place in order for you to heal and grow. It you who is or will be at issue.


Right: so Suzi goes to RfM.

2. Self-empowerment and taking back control. As an adult, it is you, and no one else who is the captain of your ship. Accordingly, you need to take back whatever power and control of your ship that you may have given to other people or other things. You may do so by accepting, abiding, and making this about what is stated below.


As you pointed out in your example, Suzi has given a lot of "power and control" over to the Church, esp. in relation to the notion of marriage. So, in effect, she needs to "take back" the control she has forked over to the Church.

3. Choice, goals, responsibility, and accountability. As the captain of your ship you have the ultimate authority and agency to make a variety of choices for and about your ship. You get to decide what kind of ship you will be, what shape your ship will be in, what direction you wish to take your ship, etc. You are also at least partially, if not fully, responsible and accountable for how your ship has sailed and how your ship will sail. You are the captain of your ship, so the buck stops with you.


Right, okay. This all makes sense: Suzi is *choosing* not to let the Church dictate her happiness.

4. Faith, hope, trust, and commitment. As the captain of your ship, you will have faith and hope that you will be able to affect positive change in your life and reach your desired destinations. This will require that you develop greater trust in your self and others (making this about a sound and secure collaborative effort), and be persistently committed and devoted to the cause--i.e. an active participant. The only person that will prevent you from realizing your worthy and reasonable goals, is you--that is, if you let you.


Obviously, since the Church milieu is not helping Suzi to gain trust in her life, and in fact, she is not bitter about the Church, it will be better for her to develop trusting relationships with like-minded people. Thus, she should go to RfM, where there are lots of people who are bitter about the Church.

5. Addressing what is meaningful and significant. As the captain of your ship, you will want to avoid micro managing and counterproductively entangling yourself in minor and petty issues, but will devote your time and energy to matters of substance and import.


I think we can both agree that the Church---and feelings related to it---are important, and substantial.

6. Addressing root causes, not symptoms. As the captain of your ship, you will want to get to the bottom of what may be negatively influencing your ship--including the workings of your moral/rational compass, the magnification and clarity of your telescope, the set of your sails, the sea-worthiness of your crew, the sturdiness of your timber, etc.


Well, the very brief example that you gave doesn't really provide much insight into "root causes," but given the heavy emphasis you said that the Church plays in Suzi's life, I think we can safely say that the Church lies---at least in part---at the root of her problems.

7. Addressing the future, not the past. As the captain of your ship, your eyes will be focused on the chosen destinations ahead, rather than the waypoints astern--otherwise, your past will continue to be your future.


Right, no problem here. A brief foray into RfM, and then she gets on with her life. Sort of like Runtu. Or Beastie.

8. Addressing the whole, and not just the parts. As the captain, when evaluating and making choices regarding your ship, you will consider whether the following are conducive to you getting to your desired destinations: a) the external environment; b) your emotional state; c) your physical health and condition, and d) your mental health and condition.


Since the Church is the predominating "external environment" in your example, it would seem best for Suzi to jettison it for the time being.

9. Doing what works. As a human captain of a human ship, you will not be so much looking with expectations of perfection and infallibility, nor with the intent to prove yourself right and others wrong, but rather to do what is reasonable and what will work best in getting you and your ship where you want to go.


Of course, during her visit to RfM, Suzi will be exposed to all sorts of criticism aimed at the Church---some outrageous and harsh, some mild; some totally false, some accurate. As such, she will no doubt gain a greater understanding of how the Church is not "perfect or infallible," and thus enabling her to have a healthy relationship both with and within the Church.

10. Becoming our best selves and fulfilling critical human needs. Whatever choices and actions you take as the captain of your ship, you will keep in mind the goal of becoming your best self (whatever you, as the captain, determine that to be) as well as the attainment of these following basic and critical human needs: "To love, value, and respect, and to be loved, valued, and respected."--understanding that while attaining one or the other of the respective sides of that equation of human needs may be somewhat satisfying, complete fulfillment comes only by attaining both sides.


The Church has already dictated a "best self" to Suzi, and obviously it is not working. Better for her to look elsewhere, no?
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