Is the Mormon Leadership in a hidden panic?

[_Fortigurn]

At this point in time we have somewhat of a stalemate. There are legitimate and worthy reasons for reasoned belief or at least the plausibility of reasoned belief in the Book of Mormon.

There is no stalemate. Given that there is no evidence (even from eyewitnesses), that the Book of Mormon was translated from golden plates, we must necessarily look for an alternative source.

[_rcrocket]

I am curious of the evidence that Chauncey Webb is an ureliable witness. From the words of his daughter Ann Eliza, one of Brigham Young's wives:

"Being accounted among the specially "faithful," my parents were among the first to whom polygamy was taught by Joseph Smith himself, and my father was commanded by him to live up to his privileges, and to take another wife. "
from the book "Wife No. 19"

Webb was a devout Mormon and good friend to Joseph Smith.

But I think Wyl doctored the accounts or exaggerated the statements of his interviewees. In addition, the account with Webb came long after the fact. Webb was probably living in Missouri when these events occurred.

Wyl also located and drafted the statements of persons who participated in the Kinderhood affair.

As Wyl states in his book, Mormonism is "the pernicious working of a system invented by imposters and carried out by outlaws . . . ." "Why. Joe would have been the captain of a pirate-ship or a slave-dealer as soon as a prophet. " Richard L. Anderson and Scott Faulring have concluded that he whipped up his interview targets with his intense hatred of all things Mormon.

So, sorry if I look at Webb's account in Wyl's book with an element of distrust.

In His Name,
rcrocket

[_marg]

Does everything point towards the Book of Mormon being bogus?

Without a doubt, yes.

[_Runtu]

But then it's not true, so it really doesn't matter, does it? ;-)

MG: Why are you so settled in your outlook towards the Book of Mormon?

I'm about as settled with regards to the Book of Mormon as I am about Dianetics. Could something change my mind? Possibly.

Are there any so called evidences that you believe have some validity?

Sure.

Does everything point towards the Book of Mormon being bogus?

No, just the vast majority of the evidence.

Would you consider answering these three questions?

Just did. :-)

As I said, the Book of Mormon is still around. It has had the honor of promoting a great deal of controversy, but no resolution one way or the other. As I've mentioned before, there are those that have worn out a good portion of their lives in trying to prove the Book of Mormon an absolute fraud. Dale Broadhurst, for example.

That's a really unfair charge against Dale, and you should retract it. I have never once heard Dale suggest that it was a total fraud, and I've known him for many years.

As for resolution, it's pretty much a resolved issue for me. But, as I said, never say never.

I remember a number of years ago spending a good deal of time looking at his pages dealing with similarities between the Spalding manuscript and the Book of Mormon. They were quite bothersome at the time. Still are. But they're not conclusive.

What is conclusive to some people may not be for others.

At this point in time we have somewhat of a stalemate. There are legitimate and worthy reasons for reasoned belief or at least the plausibility of reasoned belief in the Book of Mormon.

The only people I know who believe there's an evidentiary stalement are apologists. Are there legitimate reasons for belief? Sure there are. For me, they aren't conclusive or convincing.

There's a lot riding on the Book of Mormon isn't there? It is indeed keystone. Other issues take a backseat.

That's why I spent so much effort over so many years studying and praying about the Book of Mormon.

Why are you so dogmatic in your thinking? My guess is I've seen at least as much as you have in regards to those things that are out there which could sway one away from belief in the Book of Mormon and the church. Rather than jump ship, however, I believe there are reasons to straddle the fence, so to speak, rather than hopping down on the side of absolute, dogmatic, and irreconcilable belief that the Book of Mormon is a fraud.

Regards,
MG

Why does reaching a conclusion necessarily mean I'm being dogmatic? It would be dishonest of me to say that I haven't weighed the evidence and reached a conclusion. One could ask the same thing of you: you've seen much of the same information I have, and you've concluded that the book is true. Should I complain that you're being dogmatic? I don't get it.

[_harmony]

As has been said a few times in this thread, the Book of Mormon is indeed keystone to the Mormon story. The Book of Mormon is still there...in many languages.

So? So is the Bible. How does that make it historically authentic?

And so is the church...in many countries.

So? So are many others. How does that make it God's one true church?

It isn't going anywhere except where it's mandated to go.

So? Mandated by men. Of what use is a mandate by men?

There are those that will move away from the church, but when all is said and done...it's because they lost their way with Book of Mormon issues rather than looking at it with closer scrutiny.

It's because of that closer scrutiny that many decided it wasn't what it's touted to be.

If the Book of Mormon is true, so is the church.

Regards,
MG

And if it's not, it's not? The church does not rise or fall on the Book of Mormon. The church rises and falls on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It's the Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of the Book of Mormon.

[_harmony]

Does everything point towards the Book of Mormon being bogus?

Define bogus.

Do you mean is it what the church claims it to be? Highly unlikely.

Did it come about as the church claims it did? Highly unlikely.

Is it useful? For some, yes. For others, no.

Is it God-breathed scripture? It's canonized, so it's scripture to LDS people, but even the canonization doesn't make it something it's not: God-breathed. But then, very little that is considered scripture is actually God-breathed. Man doesn't have a very high standard for his scriptures.

[_Seven]

I am curious of the evidence that Chauncey Webb is an ureliable witness. From the words of his daughter Ann Eliza, one of Brigham Young's wives:

"Being accounted among the specially "faithful," my parents were among the first to whom polygamy was taught by Joseph Smith himself, and my father was commanded by him to live up to his privileges, and to take another wife. "
from the book "Wife No. 19"

Webb was a devout Mormon and good friend to Joseph Smith.

But I think Wyl doctored the accounts or exaggerated the statements of his interviewees. In addition, the account with Webb came long after the fact. Webb was probably living in Missouri when these events occurred.

Wyl also located and drafted the statements of persons who participated in the Kinderhood affair.

As Wyl states in his book, Mormonism is "the pernicious working of a system invented by imposters and carried out by outlaws . . . ." "Why. Joe would have been the captain of a pirate-ship or a slave-dealer as soon as a prophet. " Richard L. Anderson and Scott Faulring have concluded that he whipped up his interview targets with his intense hatred of all things Mormon.

So, sorry if I look at Webb's account in Wyl's book with an element of distrust.

In His Name,
rcrocket

I don't have Wyl's book but in Ann Eliza's book (written by herself) she confrims the story. Was she a witness or just repeating from an anti source? I am not sure how old she was at the time Fanny lived with them. Ann would have been a reliable source of Fanny Alger, and she understood her to be the first wife of Joseph. Hardly something an "anti" would state.
I will have to look up the account in my book "Wife No. 19" written by her. Her father Chauncey was in Joseph's "inner circle" and became a polygamist. Both her mother and father were very faithful members. They were very unsupportive of Ann's decision to leave Brigham Young and tried to persuade her to return. It wasn't until Brigham Young had slandered their daughter's character in public that they left the church, and even after that, I am not aware that they ever renounced their testimony.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Webb is unreliable. He is Ann Eliza's father.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Chauncey Webb. He was among the Church's earliest converts in New York, lived in Kirtland at the time of Joseph Smith's purported marriage to Fanny Alger (and was Joseph's grammar teacher there), and himself became an ardent polygamist (6 wives and 30 children). Although he was excommunicated in 1875 for standing up for his daughter, Ann Eliza, and against BY, he remained faithful to the Church until his death in 1903.

His statement exists in a compilation of anti-Mormon statements.

True, but do you have any evidence his statement wasn't true.

He would have been about 23 at this time and living in Missouri.

Actually, no, Chauncey was living in Kirtland at the time. He and his family wouldn't go to Missouri until 1838.

Compton calls him an unsympathetic witness.

Actually, Compton calls him an "unsympathetic voice" (Compton doesn't explain this, however).

His statement is a euphemism for Fanny's pregnancy, and Compton points out there is no corroboration for this claim.

Compton also states that it is "unlikely" that Chauncey was mistaken about this because Fanny Alger lived with the Webb family after being kicked out of the Smith home by Emma.

I don't know why anyone would think there were not sexual relations between Joseph and Fanny. According to Mosiah Hancock, Joseph said to Levi Hancock (Mosiah's father), before Levi would convince Fanny (Levi's niece) to marry Joseph and then actually perform the ceremony:

As early as Spring of 1832, Bro Joseph said "Brother Levi, the Lord has revealed to me that is is his will that righteous men shall take Righteous women even a plurality of Wives that a Righteous race may be sent forth uppon the Earth preparatory to the ushering in of the Millenial Reign of our Redeemer -- For the Lord has such a high respect for the nobles of his kingdom that he is not willing for them to come through the Loins of a Careles People -- Therefore; it behooves those who embrace that Principle to pay strict atention to even the Least requirement of our Heavenly Father."

Compton, p. 31 (emphasis added).

Perhaps it's just me, but the phrases "that a righteous race may be sent forth upon the Earth" and "come through the loins" seem to refer to children sired through sexual relations.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I don't have Wyl's book but in Ann Eliza's book (written by herself) she confrims the story. Was she a witness or just repeating from an anti source? I am not sure how old she was at the time Fanny lived with them. Ann would have been a reliable source of Fanny Alger, and she understood her to be the first wife of Joseph. Hardly something an "anti" would state.
I will have to look up the account in my book "Wife No. 19" written by her. Her father Chauncey was in Joseph's "inner circle" and became a polygamist. Both her mother and father were very faithful members. They were very unsupportive of Ann's decision to leave Brigham Young and tried to persuade her to return. It wasn't until Brigham Young had slandered their daughter's character in public that they left the church, and even after that, I am not aware that they ever renounced their testimony.

Ann wasn't born until 1844, so her source was probably her father, who was in Kirtland at the time.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

But I think Wyl doctored the accounts or exaggerated the statements of his interviewees.

Evidence?

In addition, the account with Webb came long after the fact. Webb was probably living in Missouri when these events occurred.

Chauncey's statements to Wyl did come long after the fact. However, Webb was in Kirtland, not Missouri, at the right time (and, according to Compton, Fanny Alger lived in the Webb household after Emma kicked her out, so if Fanny was pregnant Chauncey probably would have noticed her condition).

As Wyl states in his book, Mormonism is "the pernicious working of a system invented by imposters and carried out by outlaws . . . ." "Why. Joe would have been the captain of a pirate-ship or a slave-dealer as soon as a prophet. "

I agree that Wyl was an anti-Mormon, but Chauncey was not.