Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

[_beastie]

I'm not trying to change Mormonism or anyone, Ray. I gave that up long ago, and I never wanted to change Mormonism, I wanted to help Mormons see that good, decent, and honest people can lose faith in the LDS church for legitimate reasons. I gave up on that "mission", because it became apparent that anyone who was capable of understanding that had understood it long ago. Those who don't recognize it never will, no matter who talks to them about it, other than the prophet himself.

I like talking about religion. I like thinking about religion, and why and how human beings believe. I have few opportunities to do so in real life, and it is far easier for me to discuss these things with people with a similar background. Some conversations I engage in out of habit, no mission, no agenda, just a passing interest and a few moments to spare. Do you really think that posters here imagine they are having some impact on the LDS church in general? If so, you must be reading far different threads than I do.

We're posting on an internet board, for heaven's sake. We're all just one tiny speck on the big arse of the internet in general, filled with boards just like this one, with people discussing odd topics that, for whatever odd reason, happen to interest them at the moment. Why read something more significant into it than that?

by the way, I did tell Cabbie what I thought of him, in some many words, and did the same with Benson. I have no idea why, if you read those threads enough to see me attacked, you didn't notice me telling them what I thought of their posting styles. I don't forgive them for being assholes, I forgive the others on RFM who are hurt and venting and try to put it in perspective, and I try to share that perspective when the place is generically attacked.

Give Juliann a break from what? I hardly spend lots of time or bandwidth dwelling on her in particular. And just what do you want me to do to give "Mormonism" in general the same leeway? I don't go around trying to deconvert other people - I come to sites that are specifically designated for conversations between believers and exbelievers, so I have a valid reason to assume that the believers are there because they WANT to discuss these topics. If they didn't come to sites like this, they'd never hear a peep from me, just like the believers in my real life. There are very few LDS topics that interest me enough to discuss anymore, even on those sites, and I address only specific LDS claims, not their general religious value. If I really wanted to be an "anti Mormon" and change or destroy the religion, I would have a far different approach than I do. I guess it is just expecting too much for believers and, it seems, even you to be able to make this distinction.

I can't help that it interests me why that distinction is so difficult to make. Human beings interest me, their reasonings, their justifications for their reasonings. It isn't unusual or odd that I remain interested in Mormons, given my connections with them and the impact it had on my life.

People have a right to believe whatever they want to believe. But that is not the same as saying people have a right to believe whatever they want to believe, and then expect those beliefs not to be analyzed and at times criticized when they are held up for public consumption.

[_Seven]

I'm not trying to change Mormonism or anyone, Ray. I gave that up long ago, and I never wanted to change Mormonism, I wanted to help Mormons see that good, decent, and honest people can lose faith in the LDS church for legitimate reasons.

I always figured that's why many of us who are labeled "critics" post on these boards. We are being attacked by the apologists, church teachings, family, and friends when they make up complete lies about why we leave the church, struggle with church teachings, or go inactive . We are defending ourselves while they defend the church. I have never wanted or tried to deconvert anybody but I have desired to see them change their attitude towards people like me. I try to be a good person each day, and try my best to be honest and open minded. It doesn't seem to matter.

I'm about to give up on that mission myself. It seems no matter how hard I try, I will always be seen as someone who wanted to lose my testimony, must be sinning and choosing Satan over God. All because I can't feel good about Joseph Smith rolling in the hay with other women in God's name, while his loyal wife Emma is taking care of the children.

[_dartagnan]

I wanted to help Mormons see that good, decent, and honest people can lose faith in the LDS church for legitimate reasons.

And this is where you will always lose. People like wade prove this is true by the way they act, but at the same time they refuse to allow themselves to acknowledge its truth. It is an irony that is difficult to go unnoticed.

Again, for Mormons there is no legitimate reason to leave the faith, ever. I made copies of a couple of exchanges from last year where FAIRites literally preached that it is impossible for someone to leave the faith for legitimate intellectual reasons, or as Beowulf put it, due to “knowledge.” These exchanges were huge testaments to what we have been saying here. They cannot even conceive of a scenario where someone actually leaves the Church because he or she really does learn of something new. Later this week I might dig them up and post them online.

Ray, I agree with much of what you have said. I just don’t like these comparisons where specific Mormons get to represent Mormonism as a whole and the idiots at RFM get to represent the world of ex-Mormonism, which is perhaps a group larger than the world of active Mormons.

There are obviously incontrovertible aspects of Mormonism that make a person “better,” from an outside and a moral perspective, but there are also points where that person is not necessarily made better. To become a Mormon means you have to reconfigure your priorities in life, and non-LDS family comes second. Church takes up virtually all of your time like no other full time job could, whether in the chapel itself or in the various callings which are expected of you. And of course the doctrine of aversion towards former members is hardly something to be proud of, and most LDS exercise it freely with full confidence they have God on their side. Most people would consider this to be something less than an admirable quality in the Church. So it goes both ways in Mormonism. A person could become better or worse because of Mormonism.

Now as far as ex-Mormonism goes, I do not think it can be demonstrated that there is anything intrinsic to ex-Mormonism that makes a person worse, in any sense. From the Mormon perspective it is one of the worst things a person can do. From a non-LDS perspective ex-Mormons are just as likely to be good wholesome people as are active LDS. There is no guarantee that an apostate will become worse anymore than it is a given that a Mormon convert instantly becomes a better person.

And no matter how we slice it, either the Church is true or it isn’t. If the Church isn’t true (and people believe they have come to reasonable conclusions that this is the case) then this essentially means the entire world of ex-Mormonism is victim to a hoax. They genuinely believe this, yet, on the whole, I think the world of ex-Mormonism is relatively reticent in their antipathy towards their former faith. Maybe they are embarrassed to have to admit they believed in it. Either way, I think they are far more tolerant and forbearing than the overwhelming percentage of Mormons who maintain this bigoted mentality towards them. For Mormons, they do not need to get to know the apostate. All they need to know is that they are apostate and they rely on the LDS literature to tell them everything else they think they need to know about them.

[_beastie]

by the way, I should explain why I started this thread at all, if I'm not trying to change Mormonism or Mormons, which I am not. I just wanted to provide the "other side" to the bigotry story Wade keeps peddling to us on this site.

[_wenglund]

by the way, I should explain why I started this thread at all, if I'm not trying to change Mormonism or Mormons, which I am not. I just wanted to provide the "other side" to the bigotry story Wade keeps peddling to us on this site.

One cannot in any reasonable way consider my active participation here over the last 5 or 6 months to be anything remotely close to "peddling the bigotry story on this site". So, essentially you set up this thread to battle a figment of your infertile imagination--a straw man, and a projection. This wasn't the first time you have done this, nor do I suspect it will be the last.

Nevertheless, it did provide an opportunity to contrast dysfunctional and functional ways of addressing opposing perceptions and improving relations. I appreciate your generosity in being the object lesson for the dysfunctional side of the contrast, and for soliciting support from others, like KG, who are particularly adept in that way as well. ;-)

With that said, and unless Runtu is interested in continuing the discussion (his participation has been a breath of fresh air, and an example to us all), I am not sure there would be any value in me continuing my participation on this thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

Wade,

I wanted to see if you would ever be able to admit that there is a level of institutionalized bigotry in the LDS church towards apostates. So it wasn't a waste of time. You showed you are not able to admit that fact, no matter how obvious it may be.

I've asked you in the past to show us where you attempt to "help" believing LDS overcome their own dysfunctions in interactions with exbelievers. You admit that you don't do that. I pointed out that, just as one can best change oneself, one can best help members of one's own "tribe". The level of trust is higher, there is no underlying stress and suspicion. You ignored those comments, other than to make some juvenile retort. So after watching you create yet another thread on MAD that obviously attempted to place all culpability for the dysfunctional interactions between believer and exbeliever solely on the exbeliever, I created this thread, just to see if you would ignore these facts as well. You did. I don't care what you tell yourself about why you do what you do, but the answer is clear to me, as I've stated before. You are just one more verse in an old song. "The problem isn't with the LDS church, but rather there is something wrong with the exbeliever."

In the meantime, the thread gave an opportunity for some people to express the pain they've endured as a result of the dysfunctional relationships between believer and exbeliever. That is another reason it wasn't a waste of time.

It really is a sad situation. I know there is nothing I can do about it. It saddens me because it echoes so much of what goes on in the world.

[_dartagnan]

Daniel C. Peterson said, Feb 4 2005:

There can be no legitimate reason for leaving the Church of God or for turning one's back upon God's revealed truth and will. Such a decision is simply and always wrong.

He continues,

However, our knowledge here is limited, fragmentary, imperfect, and distorted. So it's possible that one can leave the Church for reasons that, given the flawed nature of our knowledge in mortality, genuinely appear to be good and sufficient. It's a matter of our perceptions.

Notice how our knowledge becomes “limited, fragmentary, imperfect and distorted” only when a reason “appear[s] to be good and sufficient.” This suggests that when Mormons perceive their reasons are always illegitimate, then this knowledge is somehow boundless, complete, perfect and distinct.

We can trust that God knows this and appreciates it far better than we do, and that, in his mercy, he will take such factors into account. Those who have sincerely done their best will, I believe, be blessed for it, even if they took mistaken detours. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to tempt God. And those who have lived carelessly, heedlessly, and cynically, are also living recklessly.

How can someone possibly be blessed for making a mistaken detour away from the Church after he just said such decisions will always be wrong?

Having said all of this, I add for the record that my experience with friends, relatives, and acquaintances who have left the Church has been very similar to Beowulf's. I'm not sure if I know of a single case of purely intellectual apostasy.

Beowulf is the one who made the following outrageous statements and I had hoped someone of DCP’s standing would have offered a mild correction instead of encouraging him to continue in the bigotry:

It is not "knowledge" in whatever form that turns a person away from the Church...The person has some personal demons, or anguish, or whatever, and what he "discovers" (or thinks he discovers) merely propels the person on the way. But his "discoveries" is what he goes around telling everybody over why he has lost belief… When they do leave, there is always a personal reason, despite what they say."

And guess who else jumped in on this discussion? Yep, wade himself, who said,

At the risk of being thought "arrogant" by the ever humble and open-minded Kevin Graham. My observations from personal experiences with siblings, other family members, and close friends, echoes that of Beowulf and Dr. Peterson and Ray A.

If there were ever an appropriate time for wade to demonstrate his consistency and his honesty, this would have been the time. Why doesn’t wade counsel his fellow brethren in their generalized attacks against all ex-Mormons, based on unverifiable anecdotal experiences?

What DCP did here is nothing different from those he accuses of bigotry because they believe all Muslims are terrorists. Generalization is a big “no no” with DCP, except of course when the Church permits it. It is always well to do in generalizing ex-Mormons as a group of devious, sinful and unrepentant people. And wade only too anxious to jump on the bigotry bandwagon that Beowulf was driving. Not a single word was raised to encourage the participating LDS to look for answers within. Not a single word was made to insinuate the LDS who had an angst against ex-Mormons, needed to “self heal” and that their comments were in any way “counter productive” to building bridges. Yes, wade is a hypocrite as demonstrated in his comments on this thread when juxtaposed with his comments a little over two years ago.

Anyway, when I pressed DCP on his refusal to condemn Beowulf’s post he said he doesn’t read all the posts. When I responded that he had obviously read the post that needed rebuking, he responded that didn’t read it the way I did and refused to condemn it. Amazing.

[_dartagnan]

Daniel C. Peterson said, Feb 4 2005:

There can be no legitimate reason for leaving the Church of God or for turning one's back upon God's revealed truth and will. Such a decision is simply and always wrong.

He continues,

However, our knowledge here is limited, fragmentary, imperfect, and distorted. So it's possible that one can leave the Church for reasons that, given the flawed nature of our knowledge in mortality, genuinely appear to be good and sufficient. It's a matter of our perceptions.

Notice how our knowledge becomes “limited, fragmentary, imperfect and distorted” only when a reason “appear[s] to be good and sufficient"(it isn't really sufficient it only appears to be!) This suggests that when Mormons perceive the reasons are always illegitimate, this knowledge is somehow boundless, complete, perfect and distinct." Interestingly, Dan doesn't accept the possibility that our "imperfect knowledge" and personal bias could skew a Mormon's assumption that these decisions are always wrong. Why? Because the Church says so, and the Church is perfect. Need we say anymore than this to prove the point that even the intellectual elite in Mormonism fall into the trap of letting the Church do their thinking for them? Dan is smart enough to know this is fallacious reasoning, but he is grounding his argument in a circular argument that assumes the Church is perfect. Church comes first, logic is secondary.

We can trust that God knows this and appreciates it far better than we do, and that, in his mercy, he will take such factors into account. Those who have sincerely done their best will, I believe, be blessed for it, even if they took mistaken detours. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to tempt God. And those who have lived carelessly, heedlessly, and cynically, are also living recklessly.

How can someone possibly be blessed for making a mistaken detour away from the Church after he just said such decisions will always be wrong?

Having said all of this, I add for the record that my experience with friends, relatives, and acquaintances who have left the Church has been very similar to Beowulf's. I'm not sure if I know of a single case of purely intellectual apostasy.

Beowulf is the one who made the following outrageous statements and I had hoped someone of DCP’s standing would have offered a mild correction instead of encouraging him to continue in the bigotry:

It is not "knowledge" in whatever form that turns a person away from the Church...The person has some personal demons, or anguish, or whatever, and what he "discovers" (or thinks he discovers) merely propels the person on the way. But his "discoveries" is what he goes around telling everybody over why he has lost belief… When they do leave, there is always a personal reason, despite what they say."

And guess who else jumped in on this discussion? Yep, wade himself, who said,

At the risk of being thought "arrogant" by the ever humble and open-minded Kevin Graham. My observations from personal experiences with siblings, other family members, and close friends, echoes that of Beowulf and Dr. Peterson and Ray A.

If there were ever an appropriate time for wade to demonstrate his consistency and his honesty, this would have been the time. Why doesn’t wade counsel his fellow brethren in their generalized attacks against all ex-Mormons, based on unverifiable anecdotal experiences? WHen Mormons rant together against ex-Mormons, wade is there to encourage and participate. Yet, when ex-Mormons discuss amongst themselves the problems with Mormon bigotry, wade suddenly becomes a personal Jesus of psychology and insists the existence of such a discussion proves something negative about the speakers and not their target. We are all urged to self heal and drop our petty grievances whereas Mormons at FAIR are fueled and supported with wade's own experiences that he is only too anxious to share.

What DCP did here is nothing different from those he accuses of bigotry because they believe all Muslims are terrorists. Generalization is a big “no no” with DCP, except of course when the Church permits it. It is always well to do in generalizing ex-Mormons as a group of devious, sinful and unrepentant people. And wade only too anxious to jump on the bigotry bandwagon that Beowulf was driving. Not a single word was raised to encourage the participating LDS to look for answers within. Not a single word was made to insinuate the LDS who had an angst against ex-Mormons, needed to “self heal” and that their comments were in any way “counter productive” to building bridges. Yes, wade is a hypocrite as demonstrated in his comments on this thread when juxtaposed with his comments a little over two years ago.

Anyway, when I pressed DCP on his refusal to condemn Beowulf’s post he said he doesn’t read all the posts. When I responded that he had obviously read the post that needed rebuking, he responded that didn’t read it the way I did and refused to condemn it. Amazing.

[_Ray A]

Daniel C. Peterson said, Feb 4 2005:

There can be no legitimate reason for leaving the Church of God or for turning one's back upon God's revealed truth and will. Such a decision is simply and always wrong.

He continues,

However, our knowledge here is limited, fragmentary, imperfect, and distorted. So it's possible that one can leave the Church for reasons that, given the flawed nature of our knowledge in mortality, genuinely appear to be good and sufficient. It's a matter of our perceptions.

I don't have a problem with Dan's statement. In fact, I would be surprised if he did not believe this. Moral relativism cannot fit into a religious theology like Mormonism. Does this offend me? Not at all. You also believed this when you were a TBM, Kevin. It is the nature of Mormonism, and to be expected. If I am a poor, old, lost, sinful soul in LDS eyes, so be it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'm sure my boss believes that Islam is the only true religion, and I'm sure he can't understand how anyone can reject Muhammad. But we get on just fine (as long as I don't have days off, and keep bringing in the money :).

When you can appreciate why people believe what they do, you expect them to adhere to those beliefs. Should I criticise the Pope because he believes Catholicism is the only true religion? In fact, I respect them for adhering to their beliefs, even if I believe differently.

Let me make it clear that I'm not trying to mute criticism. I think people like Dan Vogel and Brent do a fine job of this (also Uncle Dale, who is liked by many LDS posters on MAD in spite of saying he's an "anti-Mormon"). And look at how they are received on RFM!! This is the distinction I'm trying to make. There are criticisms, and there are criticisms.

There's an old joke about these people in heaven. When on earth they heard all the jokes in existence, so they decided in heaven that instead of telling the same long jokes they would just have a number for every joke. They would gather together and tell jokes by number. One would say "seventeen!", and every one would laugh. Another would say "twelve!", and everyone would laugh. Then a guy blurted out "four!", and no one laughed. Embarrassed, he later asked one of his buddies what was wrong with his joke. "There was nothing wrong with the joke", his buddy confided, "it was the way you told it".

[_Ray A]

by the way, I did tell Cabbie what I thought of him, in some many words, and did the same with Benson. I have no idea why, if you read those threads enough to see me attacked, you didn't notice me telling them what I thought of their posting styles. I don't forgive them for being assholes, I forgive the others on RFM who are hurt and venting and try to put it in perspective, and I try to share that perspective when the place is generically attacked.

My apologies. You did say what you thought. And you have told me privately what you thought. And you have taken a public stand against Benson's paranoia.

However, on a side note, I don't believe RFM is a "recovery" board. I think it's a anti-Mormon hate board. Sorry if my honest opinion offends.