JLHPROF wrote:Fact: Joseph Smith was a self-admitted, and duly convicted, glass looker and treasure hunter.
So?
Fact: Joseph Smith had sex with multiple females to whom he as not married.
Females to whom he was not CIVILLY married. There was always a marriage.
Fact: Several of these females were minors, some of them only 14 or 15 years old.
"Minor" is a modern convention. No laws were broken. No societal taboos existed. And no proof of sexuality in those relationships has been confirmed.
Fact: Extended passages found in the Book of Mormon were copied, word for word, from the King James version of the Bible known to be in the possession of the Smith family.
So?
Fact: The narrative for the "coming forth" of the Book of Mormon is fraught with internally inconsistent and wildly imaginative claims regarding non-existent golden plates, magical rocks, supernatural apparitions and other cult magic nonsense.
Completely subjective. Nothing factual about that statement.
I think your "facts" are a bit more opinion that history.
Welcome JLHPROF. If you are the same JLHPROF from MD&D, may I make a few suggestions.
If you feel like engaging extensively be prepared for a barrage of questions. Some will be respectful, some will not. We have a great ignore function and if I might suggest, it is probably best to try and limit responses to a few, since you will probably get quite a few questions. We also have another forum (the Celestial) where personal attacks are not allowed. You might be more comfortable up there to start.
Again welcome.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Are your findings reproducible, and if so would you mind giving a few examples?
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
EdGoble wrote: I am an expert in an area that you have done no work on. I have spent years on this particular area. In fact, nobody else has done any work on this particular area of the Book of Abraham, and therefore, not even other apologists are equipped to comment until they decide to actually understand the nature of what I have produced.
Therefore, you are not equipped to deal with it on its own terms until you know what I know about it. Have fun doing that, and then you will have a basis to judge it, on its terms. Otherwise, what you do is artificial and is a mockery of any kind of process to get to the bottom of an issue. The fact that I have produced what I have is the testament to my seriousness. The fact that you are just here to sucker punch me demonstrates that you are not the master of a martial art of any sort, metaphorically speaking, but are just here to see if you can get in on my defenses and say "yippee" when you think you have gotten in on me. It doesn't change the facts about the structure of my defenses. So you can choose to deal with it on its own terms, or you can continue to be what you are.
Ed,
It is comments like this that are simply special pleading.
For example, we have a very sincere poster here (Nightlion) that sees religious figures in the mountains around him that support the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. He has, I'll wager, spent much more time in his endeavor than have you in yours. Are we supposed to commit the same amount of time he has to looking at his mountains in order to question his conclusions? Given your argument above you will have to accept his arguments on the same basis you are asking everyone else to accept yours.
You have to be able to answer questions from people who have not spent the same time on your ideas as you have, if you expect people to actually take you seriously that is, since no one is going to do what you have done merely to be able to engage you in conversation.
I stated here a fact. And I invited you all on which basis you should accept or reject my information. Your actual familiarity with it. Any calls for me to reproduce it here again are not going to fly, as I have already summarized it over and over again, and it is now on you all. You can go familiarize yourself with it, as you have the ability to do so, having a mouse, a keyboard, a screen, a web browser, and a URL that has been provided to you. And if you dismiss it after your intimate familiarity with it, we shall see if you have substantial critiques of it then, at which point, I either abandon it, or rework it. But as it stands now, nobody has judged it on its own terms to give me reason. I am not fazed by accusations of special pleading or what have you. All of that boils away until finally, the burden that is on all you remains. We shall see what happens now, I guess.
Fence Sitter wrote:Welcome JLHPROF. If you are the same JLHPROF from MD&D, may I make a few suggestions.
If you feel like engaging extensively be prepared for a barrage of questions. Some will be respectful, some will not. We have a great ignore function and if I might suggest, it is probably best to try and limit responses to a few, since you will probably get quite a few questions. We also have another forum (the Celestial) where personal attacks are not allowed. You might be more comfortable up there to start.
Again welcome.
Thank you for the welcome. I don't plan on being particularly active here (as I am on MD&D). And I am not too worried about disrespect. I generally refuse to respond to anything other than reasoned discussion. I also usually limit my discussions to doctrinal and Church history issues. Posters here seem to spend a lot of time focusing on scientific, anthropological, and similar issues. Personally those hold little interest for me.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
I feel like Ed and Spectradatum are the same person.
Ed,
You use scientific terms, but demonstrate absolutely no understanding of their meaninings. You don't have a theory, you don't have a hypothesis, and you certain aren't in possession of facts. All you have are some half-baked fantasies based on your own assertions.
No one. And I mean no one takes you seriously because you yourself aren't serious about the process you're claiming to follow. The scientific method exists for a reason, and all you've done is take a giant crap all over people who YOU have asked to take your claims seriously.
At this point I'm convinced you literally don't understand the words you're using.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
JLHPROF wrote:Fact: Joseph Smith was a self-admitted, and duly convicted, glass looker and treasure hunter.
So?
So, he was a conman.
Fact: Joseph Smith had sex with multiple females to whom he as not married.
Females to whom he was not CIVILLY married. There was always a marriage.
Except that time with Fanny Alger, with whom he was caught in the barn doing the nasty by his only legal wife, Emma. So, he was an adulterer.
Fact: Several of these females were minors, some of them only 14 or 15 years old.
"Minor" is a modern convention. No laws were broken. No societal taboos existed. And no proof of sexuality in those relationships has been confirmed. Except with Fanny Alger with whom he had that "dirty, nasty, filthy affair". So, he was a sexual predator.
Fact: Extended passages found in the Book of Mormon were copied, word for word, from the King James version of the Bible known to be in the possession of the Smith family.
So? So, Joseph Smith was a plagiarizer, which means he was also a liar and a conman.
Fact: The narrative for the "coming forth" of the Book of Mormon is fraught with internally inconsistent and wildly imaginative claims regarding non-existent golden plates, magical rocks, supernatural apparitions and other cult magic nonsense.
Completely subjective. Nothing factual about that statement. Except for the peepstone, non-existent golden plates, and cult magic nonsense (e.g. see R. Bushman).
I think your "facts" are a bit more opinion that history.
You mean like those admitted to by Joseph Smith and described by the likes of Richard Bushman?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
EdGoble wrote: ...we shall see if you have substantial critiques of it then,... But as it stands now, nobody has judged it on its own terms....
Not true, Mr. Goble. You have had significant input, in this thread alone.
Your argument about being the lone expert doesn't ring true; it should be a very simple thing for an expert to answer the questions of those new to a topic. Your refusal to respond to questions is not an expert response.
EdGoble wrote: ...we shall see if you have substantial critiques of it then,... But as it stands now, nobody has judged it on its own terms....
Not true, Mr. Goble. You have had significant input, in this thread alone.
Your argument about being the lone expert doesn't ring true; it should be a very simple thing for an expert to answer the questions of those new to a topic. Your refusal to respond to questions is not an expert response.
And along this thinking: has he convinced even one fellow academic on this? To give this line of thinking more than a dismissal (the members of this board have certainly tried but remain unimpressed)? If the answer to "I need some examples and proof of how this would work and manifest itself elsewhere" is "you haven't studied enough", I guess you can never be wrong.
This is no different to the LDS idea that if you read and prayed about the Book of Mormon but received no testimony(or worse, a disaffirmation), then you must have done it wrong/not been of contrite spirit/not been humble enough.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
Is there a way someone can ELI5 what is happening for Ed? I don't think he's wrapping his head around the discussion very well.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
It all comes down to whether Joseph Smith was telling the truth or not and whether the inspiration of the imaginary holy ghost working his mojo upon Joseph and his followers was based on truth or fantasy. It has been positively shown (by the evidence and testimony) that Joseph Smith was deceiving his people and the Mormons feigned claim to things that were false even though their imaginary friend (holy ghost) was telling them it was true.
Joseph Smith was like Paul H. Dunn – lying to his flock and the flock believed the lies and did so under the inspiration of their imaginary friend, the holy ghost.
That is the bottom line, my friends. All this apologetic nonsense produced by Gobble and others is nothing but smoke and mirrors in a pond of red fish. It means nothing. It's their only way to continue to deny the truth and hold on to their vested testimonies in which they have put so much stock. It's all about what if this or what if that? Could be this or could be that!
Mormon apologetics is nothing but rabbit holes wherein the faithful wonder about in the dark hoping and groping for things that could never be. They deny reality and in their fear, refuse to face the truth. It is so sad.
Yes, I totally agree with myself. The bottom line is Joseph Smith was pretending to translate Egyptian to English and all of this under the direction of the so-called holy ghost. The Mormons believed all this nonsense while the holy ghost testified to them that these translations were true and correct. The Mormons believed that Joseph translated Egyptian from the gold plates just as he did from the papyrus. They believed that the writing was actual writings had by father Abraham written in the ancient Egyptian language and that Joseph Smith used his gift as a translator to convert standard Egyptian into standard English.
The apologetic nonsense of today's apologists is total bunk. It is simply apostate Mormonism. Joseph Smith himself would have rebuked them and cast them from the church unless they submit to his testimony.