Radio Free Mormon: Magic and the Book of Mormon (We Need Dan Vogel's Help!)

[_huckelberry]

I am puzzled by the sense that some of this discussion is being undertaken with the view that indoors in the 1820 there was lots of light to penetrate a hat for reading the interior. I will point out that there were no 100 watt bulbs or 40 watt bulbs. There was either a window or an oil type lamp or candle. These were not the modern propane lamps which produce a bright light. We are considering conditions which we would consider dark before the hat blocked the limited available light.

I think the idea of reading notes at the bottom of a hat is absurd.

[_Simon Southerton]

I am puzzled by the sense that some of this discussion is being undertaken with the view that indoors in the 1820 there was lots of light to penetrate a hat for reading the interior. I will point out that there were no 100 watt bulbs or 40 watt bulbs. There was either a window or an oil type lamp or candle. These were not the modern propane lamps which produce a bright light. We are considering conditions which we would consider dark before the hat blocked the limited available light.

I think the idea of reading notes at the bottom of a hat is absurd.

If they were translating near a window there would be plenty of light and if the hat was positioned close enough to a candle I suspect there would be enough light too. I am operating on the assumption that Joseph Smith was a conman. Where there is a will, there is a way. Since he was in control I don't think it absurd to think he could manipulate his surroundings, or the thickness of the walls of his hat, in order to read notes at the bottom of his hat.

I don't think it's absurd. Jerald Tanner has experimented with slits in the crown of a top hat to allow in light and the exchange of notes. In fact, I'm saving up to buy a genuine 19th century white stovepipe hat to test out these theories. I've saved $1000 USD. All I need is another $35,865 USD and I can start my experiment. https://ipropertymedia.com/oliver-brown ... irca-1840/

[_Physics Guy]

It's true that lighting was poorer in the 1830's, but people's eyes weren't any better. They did still somehow produce enough light to read. And daylight hasn't gotten any stronger. It's always been really bright. Even today it's quite hard to get artificial lighting that's as bright as daylight even through a window on a cloudy day.

I think it's a good point, though, that a typical 1830's room would not have been brightly floodlit. Its brightly lit spots might have been bright enough to shine through into a hat, but its darker corners would likely have been pretty dark, and since Smith wasn't supposed to be reading anything in there but the glowing stone, he wouldn't have had much excuse to sit close to a light source.

Maybe his scribe needed strong light to write, and Smith sat close to his scribe so that he could save his voice, over hours of dictation, by speaking softly?

I don't know. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't think we should put much faith in any particular reconstruction of how Smith faked his revelation. The real point is, first of all, that nothing he claimed was especially difficult. There are lots of ways he could have faked it.

And secondly, Smith's story has a number of odd elements that ought to have been quite unnecessary if Smith was really receiving revelation from God, but that are precisely the kinds of gimmick that illusionists need to use. Smith wasn't even operating at the spectacular level of some of David Copperfield's large-scale tricks; this wasn't stage magic, in fact, so much as parlor magic. Smith wasn't even pretending to be a Joshua telling the sun to stand still and having it obey him. This was a prophet with a rock in a hat, and his only miracle was to tell a story.

[_Shulem]

This is an incredible find and really helps to enliven a sense of imagining Joseph Smith in my mind as he may have actually lived. I believe that everything that ever happened is ever in time-space waves and can be channeled. Can these events be channeled and actually sense the past wherein we can see with our mind's eye what really happened? We are living in a day of enlightenment and the advancing evolution of the human race. Maybe, just maybe, things can be brought to light and the narrative discussed in such a way as the bell goes "ding" and things start to resonate with everyone. I'm optimistic about it. Why shouldn't I be?



Link to view underside of hat:

https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/267873 ... 1590160248

[Guest]

Worn Stovepipe Top Hat seen below:

The darkness in the hat is determined by what material the hat is made from: silk, wool, straw, white beaver-fur. I doubt Joseph Smith’s was silk. Here is a photo of Lewis C. Bidamon, apparently wearing a white beaver-fur top hat.

What particular reason(s) do you doubt Smith had a silk hat of perhaps finer quality?

WHITE GOLD BEAVER FUR TOP HAT:

[_huckelberry]

White hats. I am sure that except perhaps in thin fabrics the color of the hat would have no difference in its ability to block light and create the desired darkness. Perhaps a single layer thin fabric would allow enough light but that is much different than above pictured hats. Would not a hat made thin enough to allow light to go through attract attention as suspicious and strange?

I am so far sticking with my view that the only connected person with the mind and talent to create the Book of Mormon was Joseph Smith. I think verbal dictation aided by looking into a dark hat is the easiest mode of production. I think he may have reviewed other materials but did not have to memorize. He had a talent to reproduce loosely and with invention. He had no need to invent these stories all at once. He may have been inventing stories for years and could have created a flexible outline to be reviewed at leisure,perhaps existing only in his mind.

Not long ago on this board there was review of a theory that Joseph's older brother with more education could have helped. That struck me as the most likely assistant if there was one. It is possible that that assistance came by being a conduit of usable material without being aware of helping to form material which became part of the Book of Mormon.

[_Shulem]

White hats. I am sure that except perhaps in thin fabrics the color of the hat would have no difference in its ability to block light and create the desired darkness. Perhaps a single layer thin fabric would allow enough light but that is much different than above pictured hats. Would not a hat made thin enough to allow light to go through attract attention as suspicious and strange?

What? You're "SURE"?

Look, you ain't sure of anything unless that knowledge is based on actual data obtained and derived through actual testing -- you know, scientific experiments.

Have you actually performed a test of some kind? Have you read the reports of others who have performed tests?

No, you're not sure. This is an open matter for further investigation and that requires real hands on experience.

:rolleyes:

[_Shulem]

White, beaver-fur top hats on two 19th century gentlemen. Most hats before 1850 were in fact, felted beaver fur. Many believe this is what contributed to near-extinction of the animal in Europe. Later, the popularity in silk hats grew, mostly replacing their beaver counterparts. I suppose old fashion dies hard in the case of these men.

[_Shulem]

Dan the Man, Vogel, is a busy guy but I was wondering if he was aware of this notorious LDS apologetic website that discredits the stone and the hat methodology as a hoax.

Did Joseph Smith Translate The Book of Mormon With A Rock In A Hat?
NOVEMBER 18, 2017
Hoax Spread By Antimormons

[_huckelberry]

Honorentheos, "what! you are sure?"
Ok I confess to some rhetorical exaggeration. I fell for that temptation because I think the plot theory of have a text of the Book of Mormon to read out of the bottom of a hat creates more problems than it solves.

I have in fact heard of science and though I know of no scholarly research on the subject I do own some hats.I compared both a very light hat with a dark brown one they were both dark as a mine inside. I tried experiments with some thin fabrics held in a hat shape. I fairly thin one layer cotton lets in enough light to possibly read something by. Someone could construct a wire or perhaps wooden frame and stretch some fabric over it. I mentioned that I thought such a hat would attract puzzled attention.Maybe he could line such a hat so that it appeared more normal till put to use when the lining could be removed.

I confess this is not beyond possiblity. But where did the text to read come from? That is always the primary necessary question.