rc beat me to the punch on this one. I'm doing housework today and listening to some great Fusion of Live 365 (I hope the corporate suits that own the big formatted FM pop slop stations aren't able to shut this stuff down).
My perceptions exactly. I might also say that pointing out that Jesus himself never said such and such doesn't do much for one's argument. None of the words in the New Testament were written by Jesus himself, but were recorded much later by other individuals, including his Apostles, on whom we rely for all our knowledge of what Jesus said and did at that time. Indeed, the New Testament itself makes mention that if all of Jesus' sayings and actions were to be recorded, it would be vast, to say the least.
Jesus himself also made clear in the New Testament that those who would not listen to his anointed servants would not listen to him, nor to his Farther.
Coggins7 wrote:rc beat me to the punch on this one. I'm doing housework today and listening to some great Fusion of Live 365 (I hope the corporate suits that own the big formatted FM pop slop stations aren't able to shut this stuff down).
My perceptions exactly. I might also say that pointing out that Jesus himself never said such and such doesn't do much for one's argument. None of the words in the New Testament were written by Jesus himself, but were recorded much later by other individuals, including his Apostles, on whom we rely for all our knowledge of what Jesus said and did at that time. Indeed, the New Testament itself makes mention that if all of Jesus' sayings and actions were to be recorded, it would be vast, to say the least.
Jesus himself also made clear in the New Testament that those who would not listen to his anointed servants would not listen to him, nor to his Farther.
By that logic, Jesus could have been one mean SOB who drank a lot of beer and slept around. Still wouldn't make it right, would it?
By that logic, Jesus could have been one mean SOB who drank a lot of beer and slept around. Still wouldn't make it right, would it?
By what logic? How would you make a cogent argument that, based upon my claim that our entire New Testament textual knowledge of Jesus derives from those who recorded his sayings and actions at a later date, that those witnesses could be so radically divergent from Jesus' actual character as to make his entire life and message superfluous?
I think you have committed the fallacy of missing the point here. The point is not about the accuracy of the textual witnesses, but only that:
1. The record is quite fragmentary and
2. Pointing out that Jesus himself didn't say anything about homosexuality is irrelevant: his Apostles, who are the sole source for the New Testament text, quite clearly did.
By that logic, Jesus could have been one mean SOB who drank a lot of beer and slept around. Still wouldn't make it right, would it?
By what logic? How would you make a cogent argument that, based upon my claim that our entire New Testament textual knowledge of Jesus derives from those who recorded his sayings and actions at a later date, that those witnesses could be so radically divergent from Jesus' actual character as to make his entire life and message superfluous?
I think you have committed the fallacy of missing the point here. The point is not about the accuracy of the textual witnesses, but only that:
1. The record is quite fragmentary and
2. Pointing out that Jesus himself didn't say anything about homosexuality is irrelevant: his Apostles, who are the sole source for the New Testament text, quite clearly did.
OK, so I did miss the point (not the first time or the last, to be sure).
Coggins, I admit that my knowledge of the New Testament isn't comprehensive. So I'm asking this question quite sincerely and not with view to provoke.
You say: "None of the words in the New Testament were written by Jesus himself, but were recorded much later by other individuals, including his Apostles, on whom we rely for all our knowledge of what Jesus said and did at that time." [my emphasis]
But then you say: "Jesus himself also made clear in the New Testament that those who would not listen to his anointed servants would not listen to him, nor to his Farther."
So where does Jesus himself make this clear in the New Testament, if none of the words in the New Testament were written by him, but by other individuals? This doesn't make sense to me.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Coggins, I admit that my knowledge of the New Testament isn't comprehensive. So I'm asking this question quite sincerely and not with view to provoke.
You say: "None of the words in the New Testament were written by Jesus himself, but were recorded much later by other individuals, including his Apostles, on whom we rely for all our knowledge of what Jesus said and did at that time." [my emphasis]
But then you say: "Jesus himself also made clear in the New Testament that those who would not listen to his anointed servants would not listen to him, nor to his Farther."
So where does Jesus himself make this clear in the New Testament, if none of the words in the New Testament were written by him, but by other individuals? This doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, well, for the sake of brevity and just following normal convention, I use that phraseology. Call it a sloppy use of language if your want to, but some things just need to be assumed to that discourse can just proceed at a normal clip without making each and every logical or conceptual point excruciatingly clear time after time. When I say that "Jesus said", I meant by that that the Apostles faithfully recorded what he said; he said what he said through them. My point is that using the absence of Jesus having said something as evidence that he actually didn't-when his Apostles did, isn't a cogent argument supporting that premise.
Ok, thanks. I honestly didn't know if you were just speaking informally or if there was some section of scripture with another provenance. That's why I tried to make it clear that it was an actual question and not just me "trying to be funny."
No biggie.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."