sailgirl7 wrote:But then again- I'm just a "lost" soul now- so I can't grasp the finer points of religion anymore.
Why say that? St. James says that helping the widows, fatherless, etc. is pure religion. I don't see why the good you or others do is vain just because you don't explicitly seek God. I think the good you have could be amplified with God's help, but you don't. I'm fine with us disagreeing on that.
Well, whether or not God wants to help me when I help others- I have no control over that. If God doesn't help amplify my efforts to do good- then I will just have to try harder and put more effort into it.
Gadianton wrote:It's like, God is giving funky experiences for the sake of the person having a funky experience.
Or perhaps for the sake of the person developing a better relationship with God and perhaps helping others do that also. When you think about it, all the attrocities in the world are quite short compared to the eternity that (we believe) will happen afterwards. Thus from that point of view we have more to gain from learning about God through various means than we do from having God solve world hunger.
Has it ever occurred to you that the way the world seems to be working happens to fit exactly with the way you might expect it to if it were run only on naturalistic principles, and there wasn't really a God to intervene at all? In other words, with all that's going on in the world, how would this look any different if there really weren't a God up there? If the answer is "it wouldn't", then DING DING DING you're on to something!
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
He saw it as a test/trial and growing/developing experience for both the black folks and the white folks. They (members of the church) needed to overcome their own hangups and/or prejudices and not look at each other with jaundiced eyes, just as many others in the nation were struggling/attempting to do.
What a lame excuse.
God "allowed" his prophets to say horribly cruel, racist things that still haunt the church too, no doubt.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
He saw it as a test/trial and growing/developing experience for both the black folks and the white folks. They (members of the church) needed to overcome their own hangups and/or prejudices and not look at each other with jaundiced eyes, just as many others in the nation were struggling/attempting to do.
What a lame excuse.
God "allowed" his prophets to say horribly cruel, racist things that still haunt the church too, no doubt.
The LDS church was way behind the majority of the country on supporting or viewing blacks as equals. It took until 1978 before they felt inspired to remove the ban???? That's more than a few hangups or prejudices that they needed to overcome! Even today I hear many LDS state that certain races are placed in horrific circumstances because of their behavior in the pre existence.
I am not sure why he views this was a growing experience for anybody in the church. If the LDS members had openly rebelled against the ban and spoken out against LDS racist leaders, then I could see how the "test" helped them grow. Unfortunately, just like with other past immoral doctrines & policies in the church, the members remained obediently silent. I can't believe how many members back then knew it was wrong but continued to support/sustain the leaders that taught racist doctrine and espoused such wicked views of blacks. Where was the outrage? Why didn't they follow their conscience? The members failed the test.
I like what Mighty Curelom had to say on the ban/racism:
Yet there were plenty of people who didn't espouse such disgusting views. There have always been people who have risen above the stupidity and ignorance of their era; people on the "cutting edge" of societal progress. LDS church leadership is and has always been devoid of such people. Instead of being the instigator of progress, they have always been dragged behind, kicking and screaming the whole way.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
He saw it as a test/trial and growing/developing experience for both the black folks and the white folks. They (members of the church) needed to overcome their own hangups and/or prejudices and not look at each other with jaundiced eyes, just as many others in the nation were struggling/attempting to do.
What a lame excuse.
God "allowed" his prophets to say horribly cruel, racist things that still haunt the church too, no doubt.
Ummm...yeah, if prophets said what they did then in turn that would entail God "allowing" them to do so. I think though that if Darius Gray is any indicator...and those that work with him in the Genesis group, many people in the church are moving beyond the "haunting" you refer to. It may not be too many more years before the only ones that will remain "haunted" will be those critics that have never been able to let go of the blacks and the priesthood issue. It is interesting that there are many African Americans that are able to let go of past issues because of their testimonies of the gospel, and yet there are those that would just as well keep them chained to the past.
Regards,
MG
Last edited by _mentalgymnast on Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Seven wrote:I am not sure why he views this was a growing experience for anybody in the church.
The fact is though, that he did. He believes that "the works of God were made manifest" during this time. Seems to me that if anyone ought to have an opinion that ought to be valued without instant rejection, it should be someone who was a black convert to the church, grew up during the whole mess, and has stayed active with a vibrant testimony of the gospel/church. I'll tell you, he carried a powerful persona/spirit with him.
Sethbag wrote:Has it ever occurred to you that the way the world seems to be working happens to fit exactly with the way you might expect it to if it were run only on naturalistic principles, and there wasn't really a God to intervene at all? In other words, with all that's going on in the world, how would this look any different if there really weren't a God up there? If the answer is "it wouldn't", then DING DING DING you're on to something!
The answer is, I wouldn't expect people like The Nehor to receive revelations which include useful information and thus helps verify, at least to them, that the revelation is genuine instead of internal.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
barrelomonkeys wrote:Nehor, what do you think the world would be like if God did not exist?
I have no idea. This may be like asking an atheist what the Universe would be like without Hydrogen. I don't even know where to begin.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Runtu wrote:For example, this summer my wife and I had decided to move to Houston, as planned. We sat down and figured out everything we needed to do, and yet, for both of us, it just felt wrong to move. I never felt right about it, and when I told her how I was feeling, she was relieved because she had had the same feelings. So, we thought we'd just postpone the move for a year, and we both felt good about the decision.
A few weeks later I got a job offer out of the blue with a company in Utah. It turned out to be a good offer, and here I am. My wife says that Heavenly Father must not have wanted us to move, so he gave us the bad feelings, but if there's a church member less "worthy" of receiving spiritual promptings than an apostate high priest like me, I don't know who that might be. So, was God speaking to a faithful sister and her apostate husband, or were we both just not feeling good about something for reasons unrelated to spiritual matters?
We talk too much about worthiness. None of us are worthy of anything. I would guess he decided to help you because he cares and furthermore, at that time knew you would listen.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Gadianton wrote:My biggest question to anyone who experiences these kinds of things is, why are you so special? Why are gods visiting you and not the prophet, or why aren't they instead out fixing worse problems with their direct intervention? I'm sure there are plenty of rape and slaughter victims in the darkest parts of Africa who could use some information more badly than your typical confused american youth. So then you have to think, well maybe greater things will result and that's why it had to happen. But the few people I know who claim these kinds of drastic interaction with supernatural beings (good or bad) don't go on to do anything anyone could really call significant.
It's like, God is giving funky experiences for the sake of the person having a funky experience.
I'm not special. I needed it. God knew I would listen to it. He gave it to me.
Then we have the famous Africa card. Why isn't God out solving all the big problems? The simple answer. People are jackasses. We are not on Earth to be comfortable or be free of strife. God promised us utopia when we all REALLY turn to him. Most of the world and most of the LDS Church don't want it. So God preaches sermons to humble us. Sermons of war and catastrophe because according to scripture it's the only kind of sermon that seems to universally work.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo