Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

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_Themis
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _Themis »

EdGoble wrote:Actually, it doesn't. It supports the idea that he is claiming to "translate an alphabet" "as practiced by the ancients." There is nothing to suggest that he had any concept here other than reproducing what the ancients were doing with a certain "alphabet." There is no claim that this "alphabet" contained the text of the Book of abraham, at all. The only claim was that it was an "alphabet" like any other "alphabet."


Almost no one interprets it this way. The KEP was a failed attempt to understand Egyptian language so they could translate any Egyptian document. It's not really coherent, and no one could make it work.

In other words, the indication here is that we ought to be finding what the context is here, to the ancients, about the types of things they used alphabets for, and to see if any of that matches with what is internally found in the KEP. This has nothing to do with finding the source of the text of the Book of Abraham and magically reproducing some way to extract that text from what is before us. The source of that text was lost to antiquity, and nothing short of pure revelation brought it forward to the modern day.


Feel free to show how it works. So far we see no evidence of anything you are suggesting.

Therefore, my hypothesis has nothing to do with some mechanical method of translating, but rather, identifying what is going on here with the evidence that is internally available in that text, coupled with identifying anciently what people thought of and how they used alphabets and seeing if there is a match here.


You provide nothing from the ancient world that shows any re-purposing you interpret from the KEP. It makes zero sense. Why make an incoherent second meaning from the papyri, when they could just write it down. It's like trying to make a new language to tell a story. And one that can only work with one document. Change that document and you then have no coherent story. Just like if I took a short story and added a paragraph of story text to each word, and then tried to apply it to a different short story. It makes zero sense. I have no problem taking Egyptian pictures and changing their meaning, but you wouldn't do that with the text. You use it to tell your story that also explains how the pictures, usually having a different meaning, what they mean now. Fac 3 is a good example. Mostly pictures with some text at the bottom and by each figure. It explains the scene and who each person is. You don't re-purpose the text to mean something else. You write the Egyptian text to explain what the picture now means. You use text to describe each figure and that they are now different participants in a different scene. You also don't make this papyri up and bury it with your dead relative that is not meant to be seen again by living humans. Reality is Joseph was making it up as he did from the start as a treasure hunter, but that cannot be the faithful view.
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_grindael
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _grindael »

Fact: Joseph Smith had sex with multiple females to whom he as not married.

Females to whom he was not CIVILLY married. There was always a marriage.

Except that time with Fanny Alger, with whom he was caught in the barn doing the nasty by his only legal wife, Emma. So, he was an adulterer.

Fact: Several of these females were minors, some of them only 14 or 15 years old.

"Minor" is a modern convention. No laws were broken. No societal taboos existed. And no proof of sexuality in those relationships has been confirmed.


Where to even start with this tripe. First, Joseph broke his OWN LAW, written in 1842, a First Presidency Directive which stated:

Behold this is a wicked generation, full of lyings, and deceit, and craftiness; and the children of the wicked are wiser than the children of light; that is, they are more crafty; and it seems that it has been the case in all ages of the world. And the man who leaves his wife and travels to a foreign nation, has his mind overpowered with darkness, and Satan deceives him and flatters him with the graces of the harlot, and before he is aware he is disgraced forever: and greater is the danger for the woman that leaves her husband, and there are several instances where women have left their husbands, and [pg. 2] come to this place,& in a few weeks, or months, they have found themselves new husbands, and they are living in adultery; and we are obliged to cut them off from the church. I presume There are men also that are quilty of the same crime, as we are credibly informed. We are KNOWING to their having taken wives HERE and are CREDIBLY informed that they have wives in England. ...

And we also forbid that a woman leave her husband because he is an unbeliever. We also forbid that a man shall leave his wife because she is an unbeliever. If he be a bad man (i. e. the unbeliever) there is a law to remedy that evil. And if she be a bad woman, there is law to remedy that evil. And if the law will divorce them, then they are at liberty; [p. 3] otherwise they are bound as long as they two shall live, and it is not our prerogative to go beyond this; if we do it, it will be at the expense of our reputation.

These things we have written in plainness, and we desire that they should be publicly known, and request this to be published in the Millennial Star. First Presidency Address, June 12, 1842, Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Later published in the Millennial Star with some of it redacted.


This Address is very specific about what it directs. At this time, Joseph had married almost a dozen women, the majority of them already had husbands. He was having sex with them, (Sylvia Lyon is a good example) and so by his own LAW, he was committing adultery. Every woman he married until he received his July 1843 "revelation" was also by his OWN LAW, adultery.

And, did Joseph stand behind those so called "marriages"? No. When Emma objected to the Partridge sisters, Joseph shook their hands and told them to get lost. He never spoke to them again. This after he spent almost a year having sex with them. So were they real marriages? Not in my book. They were nest hiding of the worst sort.

His "revelation" from July 1843 was never put to the church for a vote, so it also was being used to break the binding church law (the article on Marriage in the D&C). Smith and his "apostles" went to great lengths to quote that binding law and deny their spiritual wifeism. They constantly deceived the majority of the church. It was illegal to practice polygamy in Illinois. So whether or not Joseph "married" young women and that was culturally acceptable, it was STILL ILLEGAL when HE did it. Fanny Alger was straight up adultery, as testified to by Oliver Cowdery. There was no marriage. I would love for ANYONE to debate me on ANY of this. You will lose.
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_grindael
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _grindael »

EdGoble wrote:
You are entirely taking what I said out of context, and you don't genuinely want to understand any point I make, and you just want to make light of everything I have produced, and take my name in vain.


No I'm not, I've quoted you EXTENSIVELY, and most of it, you've totally ignored. I totally understand what you are saying and I explained it well above. This is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING:

It like leaving a copy of "Mary had a Little Lamb" in a grave, which someone digs up a thousand years later, and then a buffoon comes along and says it isn't really about Mary and a lamb with fleece as white as snow, it is about a ninja penguiin in a snowstorm in Antarctica. That is the stupid BS you are peddling. It is beyond juvenile. White fleece is really snow! White fleece is really snow! White fleece is really snow! Mary is a ninja penguin! Why, because a moron came along and "assigned abstract values" to it. That's why. :rolleyes:
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
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One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
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_Choyo Chagas
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _Choyo Chagas »

EdGoble wrote:...
because my beliefs and commitments have no reflection on my ability to think
...

he he
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
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_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _Shulem »

Switching gears for just a moment, let us look at the statement Joseph Smith made about a particular line (Explanation 8) of Egyptian text in the Facsimile No. 2 and determine if Joseph Smith might be on to something:

Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.


Folks, Joseph Smith was not on to anything. He didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't translate Egyptian text as he claimed he could. The pretended translator teased the world and challenged them to come up with what the dead language was saying. And guess what? The world did learn how to translate and determined that the text was not had in the Holy Temple of the Mormon God. Rather it is funerary literature had by the religion of the ancient Egyptians. It has nothing to do with Abraham and the Masonic temple rites stolen by the Mormons.

Folks, Joseph Smith was a common thief, an abuser of women, and an outright conman. I know this with every fiber of my being and so testify. Joseph Smith was a conman.

Amen
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _Shulem »

Folks, the conman (Joseph Smith) dared the world to translate text in Facsimile No. 2 with Explanation 11:

Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen.


What ever Joseph meant by Egyptian numbers in figure 11 is anyone's guess but the world did find out the true meaning of the Egyptian text within the register and in the whole of the Hypocephalus. And it has nothing to do with Abraham, Jesus Christ, or the Masonic rites which the Mormons stole.

Yes, the world figured out what the text says but Joseph Smith could not. The pretended translator baited the world and in his smug pride he thought he could pull a fast one.
_Shulem
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _Shulem »

Joseph Smith published his Book of Abraham and Facsimile No. 3 in the Times & Seasons and offered it to the world as the actual writings of Abraham written down in the form of Egyptian texts. Joseph Smith claimed to have taken this EGYPTIAN text and translate it into ENGLISH:

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.


Joseph Smith's papyrus did not contain the fabricated story of the Book of Abraham. The interpretations and translations of the Facsimile No. 3 are completely false. The Mormons were fooled by a conman.
_DrW
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _DrW »

Choyo Chagas wrote:
EdGoble wrote:...
because my beliefs and commitments have no reflection on my ability to think
...

he he

"he he" is right. What a load of nonsense.

The fact that an individual would even make such a statement says all that one needs to know about that individual's real ability to think, and more importantly their judgement (to say nothing of their wisdom - or abject lack thereof).

To be of any practical value, the 'ability to think' must include the ability to evaluate and weigh information, and then critically apply logic and reason to reach a valid conclusion or arrive at a tenable position or belief regarding a given issue. At its best, the process involves additional 'stress testing' of any hypothesis or conclusion against additional facts as they become available. Such an approach constitutes good judgement, and over time, endows one with wisdom.

The approach to decision making and belief described by EdGoble is that of an amateur prospector who, upon finding a large chunk of iron pyrite in a mountain stream, decides to quit his day job and pan for gold full time.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _Lemmie »

Ed's comment about his beliefs not influencing his ability to think reminded me of something he said late last year, that has stuck with me.
EdGoble wrote:I can't agree with you that people that leave Mormonism having once been converted, and having a certain amount of light, are in the same state as people that never had that light.... The people that leave Mormonism have broken covenants, and are responsible for that, and can never be in the same position as those who never made them, and never knew that level of light.

You say that I will never win these people over with the way that I am speaking. I didn't think that I would ever win anyone over, but I don't mince words about what I see as facts. I can't always treat people with kid gloves that make excuses for their state when it is a result of their own choices, as much as an alcoholic is responsible for his state.
viewtopic.php?p=1016627#p1016627
A belief like that influences one's ability to think, and I think it definitely influences how Ed communicates his thinking with "these people."
_grindael
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Re: Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

Post by _grindael »

I find it interesting that he is likening leaving the Church to an ADDICTION.

...make excuses for their state when it is a result of their own choices, as much as an alcoholic is responsible for his state.


I'm sure like everyone else here that he must realize that people also choose to drink (that is how they become alcoholics) , just like people choose to join the church. So when they leave, they are then in a "state" like "alcoholics"? Meaning, of course they are suffering from an addiction.

Out of all the choices he could have likened it to, he chose that one. Fascinating, but also weird and bizarre.

And what a freaking judgmental jerk he is. What "light" is he talking about? Adam-God? Blood Atonement? Racism? Covenants that include Blood Oaths? Revenge Oaths? Having to believe in Spiritual Wifeism? Phony "pseudepigrapha'? Doctored "revelations"? Blindly following leaders? Forced regulations? Forced tithing?

If this is his "light" we are all better off in the dark
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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