BYU faculty and the Book of Mormon

[_Yahoo Bot]

Chap sayeth: Let us recall that Smith's listing of their names is all we have. No document actually signed by these people exists.

A common and bogus attack against the witnesses.

It was very common to simply publish the statement of witnesses (see John C. Bennett's book), exactly as was done here. The witnesses, upon seeing it, could disavow their affirmation if they didn't affirm. They didn't disavow their affirmation. Ever. It is highly unlikely there was some original signed document.

[_Fence Sitter]

Chap sayeth: Let us recall that Smith's listing of their names is all we have. No document actually signed by these people exists.

A common and bogus attack against the witnesses.

It was very common to simply publish the statement of witnesses (see John C. Bennett's book), exactly as was done here. The witnesses, upon seeing it, could disavow their affirmation if they didn't affirm. They didn't disavow their affirmation. Ever. It is highly unlikely there was some original signed document.

Excellent point Bot. But it does raise an interesting question.

How many of Bennett's witnesses never denied their testimonies?

[_Themis]

I think I'm following you. With the quote and scripture you posted, you are saying that sometimes god is ok with moral relativism as long as it benefits the greater good. So Joseph Smith and the witnesses were given access to the plates, even though it would result in "enforced free agency", so that they could "take one for the team". Therefore, the plates HAD TO be taken from the earth because god didn't want everyone else to experience "enforced free agency" by having access to such a powerful source of evidence.

You've got it.

Sorry MG but this is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard. Even as a believing member I was never this stupid. Free agency cannot be free if it is enforced. How is it being enforced? It's not. There is nothing you can show that makes them choose one way or another other then their own free choice based on good information. Less information does not take away from one's ability to choose, only their ability to make better choices. Your stupid idea is also an admission you don't have good evidence to know God exists or if the church is true.

[_mentalgymnast]

Sorry MG but this is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

I won't try to talk you out of thinking that.

Even as a believing member I was never this stupid.

I should take this personally, but I don't see any need to. I'm perfectly comfortable with expressing my perspectives and believe that they add value to the discussion.

Free agency cannot be free if it is enforced.

A discussion on free agency and/or free will is a whole other discussion. The fact is, I believe that at times there are extenuating circumstances in which Joseph's words come into play:

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire...

The discussion of the plates/witnesses and the plates being returned to Moroni may fall within the scope of extenuating circumstances. We have the word of the Lord saying that in the mouths of two or three witnesses shall all things be established. For the witnesses to share their testimony with the world there needed to be some kind of experiential contact/interface with the plates. They didn't have the actual Book of Mormon as a witness/evidence.

That came later.

We have the published Book of Mormon but no plates. Their situation/circumstance cannot be directly compared with ours. Agency/choice are affected by circumstances. Some external and some internal. There is no clean cut, cut and dried "free agency" that you're referring to. Your view within the application of the circumstances to which you're referring to in this exchange is rather limited in my view.

Regards,
MG

[_Morley]

Incoherent gibberish. So, God stripped the Book of Mormon witnesses of their free agency so that you could have yours? Plus, you’ve already said that you very likely wouldn’t have believed Smith’s claims but for his possession of plates, so God also stripped you of yours by leaving the evidence of plates that he did. The fact us, any manipulation of evidence by an omniscient being necessarily affects the free agency of mere mortals. And neither you nor I have a clue as to the magnitude of that effect for any given person. But this kind of Panglossian nonsense is what you get when you manufacture rationales for imaginary beings.

Panglossian nonsense. Beautiful. And even though this is the best of all possible worlds, I haven't heard that term referenced in years.

[_Themis]

Agency/choice are affected by circumstances.

Free agency is not affected. You always have that. The only thing affected is our information about the choices. You cannot force free agency. I don't mean to insult, but it's hard to avoid with obviously stupid arguments. Arguments most members would never make. You cannot even show why God wants people to guess which is right and wrong. God could show up to me tomorrow and I could still choose to not to believe or follow God.

[_mentalgymnast]

Agency/choice are affected by circumstances.

Free agency is not affected. You always have that. The only thing affected is our information about the choices. You cannot force free agency. I don't mean to insult, but it's hard to avoid with obviously stupid arguments. Arguments most members would never make. You cannot even show why God wants people to guess which is right and wrong. God could show up to me tomorrow and I could still choose to not to believe or follow God.

I'm not disputing that. You would find that you have something in common with Laman and Lemuel in that respect.

Whether or not I argue something that "most members" would not argue is open to discussion I suppose. But I don't think I'm too much out of the ordinary as I approach/think about things that at first glance don't make sense. Granted, a lot of folks may not give a second glance.

I do.

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

I'm not disputing that. You would find that you have something in common with Laman and Lemuel in that respect.

I know that is meant as an insult, but you are wrong. The Laman and Lemuel story has them seeing angels and other miracles providing really good evidence God exists and their father and brothers religion/teachings are true. Not so for you or I. This story you believe is factual undermines your claim of having really good evidence enforces free agency, forgetting for the moment that enforce and free are opposites. Laman and Lemuel had lots of evidence yet rejected it anyways, so God leaving the plates behind to be examined by experts would not undermine free agency. In fact the Bible and other LDS scriptures are full of these kinds of stories. Even the real world shows people can have good evidence and still reject it.

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm not disputing that. You would find that you have something in common with Laman and Lemuel in that respect.

I know that is meant as an insult...

Not really, Themis. Thus the 'razz'. I figured you'd see it as it was intended. Sorry if I offended you.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

The Laman and Lemuel story has them seeing angels and other miracles providing really good evidence God exists and their father and brothers religion/teachings are true.

I'll hand you that.

Not so for you or I.

True.

This story you believe is factual undermines your claim of having really good evidence enforces free agency...

It's not that free agency was enforced in this story as much as it was that Laman and Lemuel were left without excuse. They made their choice. They were then strictly accountable for their actions. No excuses.

...God leaving the plates behind to be examined by experts would not undermine free agency.

True. But we would be left without excuse if we were to turn away from the truth. As it is, folks are 'free' to make up excuses and/or create rationalizations for not believing. I believe they will not be subject to the same accountability standard that they would if they had solid and undeniable evidence...such as the plates, for example.

In fact the Bible and other LDS scriptures are full of these kinds of stories.

Yes.

Even the real world shows people can have good evidence and still reject it.

Yes. But then they are also left without excuse.

You and others make excuses and/or have reasons for not accepting the Book of Mormon as the word of God. The fact that you have not seen the plates will actually be in your favor, I would think, if and when there is a time and a place where you/I and/or anyone else are ultimately accountable for our choices/actions.

The original witnesses to the plates have a higher accountability standard than we do, in my opinion.

Regards,
MG