Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[doubtingthomas]

I’m not one to doubt your belief and reasons to think you’ve had experiences that are meaningful to you. I do question your beliefs in regards to thinking that you are Jesus Christ.

But you can't disprove that I am Jesus. It's possible that I am Jesus, therefore it must be true, right? And you shouldn't attack my religious beliefs.

[drumdude]

I think you might consider using another manner of communicating/delivery for announcing your second return other than this backwoods forum/board.

Doesn’t this fit the pattern that Joseph Smith started? Who better than an obscure farm boy, where better than an obscure forum?

“Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; … and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word … and out of weakness he shall be made strong”

[IWMP]

I’m not one to doubt your belief and reasons to think you’ve had experiences that are meaningful to you. I do question your beliefs in regards to thinking that you are Jesus Christ.

But you can't disprove that I am Jesus. It's possible that I am Jesus, therefore it must be true, right? And you shouldn't attack my religious beliefs.

You aren't Jesus.

[MG 2.0]

I agree with this. Thank you for sharing what is a ‘rough go of it’ in your personal life.

Free will can have its limitations due to a number of things. IHQ names a few.

It’s also a proven fact that our actions and thoughts have precursor functions in the brain.

I do think, however, that free will exists and that we are responsible for our thoughts and actions within the parameters of the limits that our environment or biology place upon us.

MG, I think you've hit upon an interesting point. A constrained free will is vastly different than a wholly free will.

What percentage of free will do you put the average human being as having, in our day-to-day behaviors?

Personally, my estimation for the average that each of us exercises would be at significantly less that 2%. I'd be interested in what you think and why think it.

As a lead in I will post this comment from Pi A.I.:

Within the realm of quantum mechanics, indeterminism provides a possible avenue for free will because it suggests that not all events in the universe are determined by prior events or conditions. Instead, some events appear to be truly random, or at least unpredictable.

If our brain processes, particularly those involved in decision making, are influenced by quantum processes, then it's possible that there is a level of uncertainty or randomness that could allow for genuine free will.

In essence, the inherent unpredictability of quantum mechanics could provide a source of "noise" that allows us to make decisions that are not fully determined by prior events or conditions, thus enabling free will.

We can see that free will is regulated by conditions set upon it. But there is room for real choices. All have free will, per se, to a greater or lesser degree. I referred to Victor Frankl earlier. No one here responded in regards to his expertise in psychiatry and his horrific experiences in the concentration camps. His writings seem to demonstrate that even under extreme conditions free will is operative and different people will respond to input/stimuli in different ways.

What accounts for that?

The free will that is available to anyone person is I’m sure based upon a multiplicity of factors. Nonetheless, free will is there. It is intact. You and I…well, I can’t speak for you, I suppose…have the blessing/inherent ability of being able to exercise greater choice and have the faculties that let us have a wider range of emotions, abilities to process information, and societal conditions (among other factors) that allow us a significantly increased ability to exercise free will than those that are limited and/or constricted to a lesser degree of free will, whether in thought or action.

Honestly, I find it somewhat sad that there are those that are blessed to a greater degree in regards to free will and will then use their agency to cast off or negate that very gift they’ve been given. But that’s the very nature of free will. It reminds me of the old aphorism of where much is given, much is expected. I think that applies to those of us (again, I can’t speak for you) that have been given much in the way of opportunities to exercise a great degree of agency and choice.

And then come out and say that they really don’t. They are hostage to their neurons.

Regards,
MG

[IWMP]

I do think there is an element of conditioning. And what goes on in your life affects choices. Some people feel they have no choice in some situations because they lack knowledge of other options. Or they can't see past perhaps a dire situation to rationalise. I think we have choice that is limited by outside factors. So not entirely free will.

I agree with this. Thank you for sharing what is a ‘rough go of it’ in your personal life.

Free will can have its limitations due to a number of things. IHQ names a few.

It’s also a proven fact that our actions and thoughts have precursor functions in the brain.

I do think, however, that free will exists and that we are responsible for our thoughts and actions within the parameters of the limits that our environment or biology place upon us.

Regards,
MG

I can get on board with this.

[IWMP]

I agree with this. Thank you for sharing what is a ‘rough go of it’ in your personal life.

Free will can have its limitations due to a number of things. IHQ names a few.

It’s also a proven fact that our actions and thoughts have precursor functions in the brain.

I do think, however, that free will exists and that we are responsible for our thoughts and actions within the parameters of the limits that our environment or biology place upon us.

MG, I think you've hit upon an interesting point. A constrained free will is vastly different than a wholly free will.

What percentage of free will do you put the average human being as having, in our day-to-day behaviors?

Personally, my estimation for the average that each of us exercises would be at significantly less that 2%. I'd be interested in what you think and why think it.

I know this isn't aimed at me. I would estimate more than 2 percent but I guess it depends on your understanding of free will. I asked Jamie. He couldn't answer. He said the problem is a large part of your life is decided for you before you leave school. I replied that perhaps even before you are born depending on your parents. The more I think about it the lower the percentage gets. But if we look at free will as a choice within the system we live in and ignore the existence of all other options then in each situation there is a higher percentage of choice. Each event has a different level of choice. We can be at a crossroads where one path is easy and the other, perhaps we could choose it but at a price making it a harder choice.

[MG 2.0]

…if we look at free will as a choice within the system we live in and ignore the existence of all other options then in each situation there is a higher percentage of choice. Each event has a different level of choice. We can be at a crossroads where one path is easy and the other, perhaps we could choose it but at a price making it a harder choice.

Makes sense.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Does the 7 year old child of Mormon parents in Utah really have a free will choice about being baptised at 8 years old?

Does the born-in-the-the church married man, with a Mormon spouse, Mormon parents, a Mormon boss at work, and a social group entirely consisting of Mormons, have a free will choice about their religious belief and in attending church?

Do people have a free will choice about their sexuality?

Do people have a free will choice about what their native language is?

Genetics, nurture, experience and environment will ensure that you don’t make any decision based on pure cognitive freedom (free will).

[IWMP]

Does the 7 year old child of Mormon parents in Utah really have a free will choice about being baptised at 8 years old?

Does the born-in-the-the church married man, with a Mormon spouse, Mormon parents, a Mormon boss at work, and a social group entirely consisting of Mormons, have a free will choice about their religious belief and in attending church?

Do people have a free will choice about their sexuality?

Do people have a free will choice about what their native language is?

Genetics, nurture, experience and environment will ensure that you don’t make any decision based on pure cognitive freedom (free will).

Perhaps no true free will. But a choice is available. The consequences of the choices make them cost.

They could leave Utah, leave their family.
They could be disfellowshipped and frowned upon.
They could choose to stay and live with it, choosing to stay is still a choice.

The cost here is that they either live life in a way that they would rather not but have their family and friends. Old Testament they can leave and possibly risk losing those relationships.

So they have will but not free.

A person may ignore the attractions they feel and that is their choice. They may choose to explore that. Both choices are present. But they wouldn't be free to turn it off.

The cost is to be in a relationship with someone you aren't attracted to to fit in with expectations of society (although this is changing) at the cost of having a level of intimacy that would only be available when with someone you are attracted to. Or go against family, expectations, have anxiety about the difficulties that might be perceived in coming out to people. The choices are available. The person is free to make that choice but the choices come at a cost.

A person is born into their native language and they can't decide at birth to change that. But if they decide to make the choice to learn a new language, the choice is there. The free choice is lost when it comes to accessing the other language and their ability to retain and learn said language.

I don't believe in pure cognitive freedom. Even our brains and how they work limit us. A person with severe learning difficulties can't just decide to go to university with no prior education. But would it occur to that person to even consider that option? Their sense of freedom would be lost if they had the desire but no doors opened to allow them to do it.

I struggle. I find it hard to understand people's expressions, intentions and sometimes what they say. I feel limited because when I try to make conversation the anxiety I feel can make me shut down. Now I have a choice realistically to ignore that and just assume that I know what the intentions are. But I haven't worked out how to do that. I actually find it easier to understand conversations through text and email. The expressions and energy's makes me not sure about what is said. I pick up subtle changes in people's stance, and face but I can't see my own. I'm not aware of what my body looks like to others. I feel this hinders my freedom to choose in some ways because I can't control the panic and anxiety.

Edit: I didn't write old testament. Autocorrect did. I'm not going to proof read and edit this. Going to go get settled. Night

[Morley]

MG, I think you've hit upon an interesting point. A constrained free will is vastly different than a wholly free will.

What percentage of free will do you put the average human being as having, in our day-to-day behaviors?

Personally, my estimation for the average that each of us exercises would be at significantly less that 2%. I'd be interested in what you think and why think it.

As a lead in I will post this comment from Pi A.I.:

Within the realm of quantum mechanics, indeterminism provides a possible avenue for free will because it suggests that not all events in the universe are determined by prior events or conditions. Instead, some events appear to be truly random, or at least unpredictable.

If our brain processes, particularly those involved in decision making, are influenced by quantum processes, then it's possible that there is a level of uncertainty or randomness that could allow for genuine free will.

In essence, the inherent unpredictability of quantum mechanics could provide a source of "noise" that allows us to make decisions that are not fully determined by prior events or conditions, thus enabling free will.

We can see that free will is regulated by conditions set upon it. But there is room for real choices. All have free will, per se, to a greater or lesser degree. I referred to Victor Frankl earlier. No one here responded in regards to his expertise in psychiatry and his horrific experiences in the concentration camps. His writings seem to demonstrate that even under extreme conditions free will is operative and different people will respond to input/stimuli in different ways.

What accounts for that?

The free will that is available to anyone person is I’m sure based upon a multiplicity of factors. Nonetheless, free will is there. It is intact. You and I…well, I can’t speak for you, I suppose…have the blessing/inherent ability of being able to exercise greater choice and have the faculties that let us have a wider range of emotions, abilities to process information, and societal conditions (among other factors) that allow us a significantly increased ability to exercise free will than those that are limited and/or constricted to a lesser degree of free will, whether in thought or action.

Honestly, I find it somewhat sad that there are those that are blessed to a greater degree in regards to free will and will then use their agency to cast off or negate that very gift they’ve been given. But that’s the very nature of free will. It reminds me of the old aphorism of where much is given, much is expected. I think that applies to those of us (again, I can’t speak for you) that have been given much in the way of opportunities to exercise a great degree of agency and choice.

And then come out and say that they really don’t. They are hostage to their neurons.

Regards,
MG

So, you’re saying we have 100% free will?

Or is it 80%?

Maybe 50%?

I’m just asking you to assess for yourself. I gave you my estimate. Surely you can share yours.