Formal Mormon Theology

[Ego]

So the Atonement is wither Jesus doing half a job of suffering for our sins, or God demands a double amount of suffering for our sins.

Accountability for sins that we don't fully repent of is not an unreasonable concept.

What part of that accountability Jesus paid for is probably above our pay grade to try and determine.

And I'm sure it varies from person to person depending on how much light and knowledge they had. Obviously, accountability would be associated with that.

You may be more accountable than the next person.

Regards,
MG

1 John 2: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world⁠.

What about that is unclear or above our pay grade to determine? Jesus supposedly suffered for all the sins of everyone, even if they didn’t repent and relinquish accountability. So absolutely the formal Mormon theology would have to hold that for the unrepentant he suffered needlessly and there is double the suffering for those sins. A very cruel system if you ask me especially when we speak of people suffering for sins like drinking coffee in the morning and having a wine at dinner.

As an aside I have noticed more than once you’ve tried to avoid uncomfortable implications by saying ‘it is above our pay grade to determine.’ Hopefully this pushback I’m giving here can help us reason through this rather than thinking it can’t be known.

[MG 2.0]

Not separate in all respects.

Separate in the key aspect of who gets to heaven. And who Jesus is. And how Salvation works. And how much money is required to get to heaven. And what the afterlife looks like. And…

Need for a restoration. Tithing is a law in the current dispensation to help support the temporal kingdom but more importantly to separate the wheat from the tares. It's not an easy thing to give up a portion of one's resources...or what we think is ours.

Members of the LDS Church who are tithe payers do have a confidence that sacrifice brings forth blessings.

For some, that is a law/commandment for our day that is 'one bridge too far'.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Accountability for sins that we don't fully repent of is not an unreasonable concept.

What part of that accountability Jesus paid for is probably above our pay grade to try and determine.

And I'm sure it varies from person to person depending on how much light and knowledge they had. Obviously, accountability would be associated with that.

You may be more accountable than the next person.

Regards,
MG

1 John 2: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world⁠.

What about that is unclear or above our pay grade to determine? Jesus supposedly suffered for all the sins of everyone, even if they didn’t repent and relinquish accountability. So absolutely the formal Mormon theology would have to hold that for the unrepentant he suffered needlessly and there is double the suffering for those sins. A very cruel system if you ask me especially when we speak of people suffering for sins like drinking coffee in the morning and having a wine at dinner.

As an aside I have noticed more than once you’ve tried to avoid uncomfortable implications by saying ‘it is above our pay grade to determine.’ Hopefully this pushback I’m giving here can help us reason through this rather than thinking it can’t be known.

When I say, "Above our paygrade" I am saying that the final judgement is left up to the Lord. It's not ours to decide how much and who is accountable for one thing or another. What we do know/believe is that Jesus performed an Atonement that gives Him the authority/right/stewardship to act as an intercessor for our mistakes/transgressions/sins. He will be the one to judge. He will determine our accountability...or not...for our actions/deeds/thoughts.

What that exact process is and how He will administer equal justice/mercy to all of the inhabitants of the earth...I do think is above our pay grade. After all, He is God. We are human beings taking baby steps in that direction. If we choose to do so.

What we can do, is live as best we can with faith in Jesus Christ and trust that He will make it all right. For everyone.

But that doesn't mean that we will all 'end up' in the same place. Although I know there are a number of modern philosophies, new age beliefs, and religions that would see things differently.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

When I say, "Above our paygrade" I am saying that the final judgement is left up to the Lord.

Regards,
MG

Boy, that's discomforting, isn't it? Final judgment is going to be left up the immoral Mormon Lord that was a racist until 1978 and won't intervene to protect children from molesting bishops, and had people killed (the inhabitants of the earth by way of the flood, for example)?

I've seen civil judges on a rare occasion get a bit peeved and impetuous, and issue an irrational decision as a result. But they don't hold a candle to how irrational and immoral your Mormon Lord is.

[MG 2.0]

When I say, "Above our paygrade" I am saying that the final judgement is left up to the Lord.

Regards,
MG

Boy, that's discomforting, isn't it? Final judgment is going to be left up the immoral Mormon Lord that was a racist until 1978 and won't intervene to protect children from molesting bishops, and had people killed (the inhabitants of the earth by way of the flood, for example)?

I've seen civil judges on a rare occasion get a bit peeved and impetuous, and issue an irrational decision as a result. But they don't hold a candle to how irrational and immoral your Mormon Lord is.

sock puppet, I have no idea where you're coming from as to your own personal beliefs...but for you to place judgement/blame on others as an outsider is well, not even interesting. Your responses are boiler plate.

What are your own personal beliefs beyond the here and now? God. Judgement. Race. Accountability. Agency. (all these things enter into the conversation) Why do I ask? If you don't have anything better to do than calling God names and calling LDS Bishops molesters...in mass...think it's not worth having a conversation.

If you are an atheist/agnostic it's awfully easy to find fault with that which you do not understand fully. We look through a glass darkly.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

Boy, that's discomforting, isn't it? Final judgment is going to be left up the immoral Mormon Lord that was a racist until 1978 and won't intervene to protect children from molesting bishops, and had people killed (the inhabitants of the earth by way of the flood, for example)?

I've seen civil judges on a rare occasion get a bit peeved and impetuous, and issue an irrational decision as a result. But they don't hold a candle to how irrational and immoral your Mormon Lord is.

sock puppet, I have no idea where you're coming from as to your own personal beliefs...but for you to place judgement/blame on others as an outsider is well, not even interesting. Your responses are boiler plate.

What are your own personal beliefs beyond the here and now? God. Judgement. Race. Accountability. Agency. (all these things enter into the conversation) Why do I ask? If you don't have anything better to do than calling God names and calling LDS Bishops molesters...in mass...think it's not worth having a conversation.

If you are an atheist/agnostic it's awfully easy to find fault with that which you do not understand fully. We look through a glass darkly.

Regards,
MG

God--no such thing, just a figment of your imagination and hopes
Judgment--no such thing in a religious sense
Race--superficial differences among humans, that should be ignored
Accountability--in your religious sense? N/A
Agency--in your religious sense? N/A

[MG 2.0]

sock puppet, I have no idea where you're coming from as to your own personal beliefs...but for you to place judgement/blame on others as an outsider is well, not even interesting. Your responses are boiler plate.

What are your own personal beliefs beyond the here and now? God. Judgement. Race. Accountability. Agency. (all these things enter into the conversation) Why do I ask? If you don't have anything better to do than calling God names and calling LDS Bishops molesters...in mass...think it's not worth having a conversation.

If you are an atheist/agnostic it's awfully easy to find fault with that which you do not understand fully. We look through a glass darkly.

Regards,
MG

God--no such thing...

Nothing further to discuss.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

When I say, "Above our paygrade" I am saying that the final judgement is left up to the Lord.

Regards,
MG

Boy, that's discomforting, isn't it? Final judgment is going to be left up the immoral Mormon Lord that was a racist until 1978 and won't intervene to protect children from molesting bishops, and had people killed (the inhabitants of the earth by way of the flood, for example)?

I've seen civil judges on a rare occasion get a bit peeved and impetuous, and issue an irrational decision as a result. But they don't hold a candle to how irrational and immoral your Mormon Lord is.

It is true that Mormon God’s track record, or the Mormon Church Leadership’s presentation of God’s will, has been less reliable than using a Magic 8 Ball. And the Magic 8 Ball hasn’t operated a decades long financial fraud.

[Ego]

Boy, that's discomforting, isn't it? Final judgment is going to be left up the immoral Mormon Lord that was a racist until 1978 and won't intervene to protect children from molesting bishops, and had people killed (the inhabitants of the earth by way of the flood, for example)?

I've seen civil judges on a rare occasion get a bit peeved and impetuous, and issue an irrational decision as a result. But they don't hold a candle to how irrational and immoral your Mormon Lord is.

sock puppet, I have no idea where you're coming from as to your own personal beliefs...but for you to place judgement/blame on others as an outsider is well, not even interesting. Your responses are boiler plate.

What are your own personal beliefs beyond the here and now? God. Judgement. Race. Accountability. Agency. (all these things enter into the conversation) Why do I ask? If you don't have anything better to do than calling God names and calling LDS Bishops molesters...in mass...think it's not worth having a conversation.

If you are an atheist/agnostic it's awfully easy to find fault with that which you do not understand fully. We look through a glass darkly.

Regards,
MG

Jordan Peterson recently had a debate where he claimed that atheists don’t understand the God whom they reject. He was backed so far into a corner in that debate that his only defense left was to say that the reason they don’t understand it because one of God’s characteristics is that he is ineffable, but that also means believers don’t understand him. I respectfully request that you never again disparage someone’s opinion merely based on the fact that they are agnostic or atheist because you think they don’t understand what it is they reject. It has been my experience that they understand very well, often times better than a believer who has never considered their own theology critically.

[MG 2.0]

sock puppet, I have no idea where you're coming from as to your own personal beliefs...but for you to place judgement/blame on others as an outsider is well, not even interesting. Your responses are boiler plate.

What are your own personal beliefs beyond the here and now? God. Judgement. Race. Accountability. Agency. (all these things enter into the conversation) Why do I ask? If you don't have anything better to do than calling God names and calling LDS Bishops molesters...in mass...think it's not worth having a conversation.

If you are an atheist/agnostic it's awfully easy to find fault with that which you do not understand fully. We look through a glass darkly.

Regards,
MG

Jordan Peterson recently had a debate where he claimed that atheists don’t understand the God whom they reject. He was backed so far into a corner in that debate that his only defense left was to say that the reason they don’t understand it because one of God’s characteristics is that he is ineffable, but that also means believers don’t understand him. I respectfully request that you never again disparage someone’s opinion merely based on the fact that they are agnostic or atheist because you think they don’t understand what it is they reject. It has been my experience that they understand very well, often times better than a believer who has never considered their own theology critically.

I like Jordan Peterson. Ever since he first came on the scene bucking the system in Canada that was forcing him to recognize something that he knew not to be true to his own heart and soul.

Jordan Peterson saying that God is ineffable is fine. He doesn't have a clue as to what God's nature is. Nothing against him. He just doesn't know. The fact that he brings people to a place that they can 'see' a god at all...is good. Being that so many folks have been duped into non-belief.

Personally, I don't think Jordan Peterson understands the nature of God in the same way that the prophets have. I do think, however, that he does a pretty darn good job at 'pushing' His attributes which has resulted in a lot of people, men especially, getting their act together and being responsible/moral men. Real men.

Respectfully, I will stand with my statement made earlier:

If you are an atheist/agnostic it's awfully easy to find fault with that which you do not understand fully.

With the caveat that even prophets don't understand God and His ways fully either. But as a believer, I'm in the camp that gives prophets the benefit of doubt when it comes to some things. But not everything.

Only a prophet when speaking as a prophet. And even then, as I've said on another thread...things can be somewhat conditional because of various factors...especially agency of individuals to screw things up or not follow counsel.

Regards,
MG