For Mormons and Exmormons: Object Lessons in Church

[_KimberlyAnn]

Can't please some folks. From your point of view the cupcake lesson is a regular bonifide lesson taught in most Wards and branches. I disagree. You see the issue in black and white, in my opinion, sorry for having an opinion that doesn't suit your taste in every case.
No hope for us, KA. I bid you goodbye forever. I will trouble you no more. :)

I'm actually easy to please. I expect apologies when they're owed me, and when I get them, I forgive. And I don't even require someone to die! See? I'm even nicer than God!

It's not just the cupcake lesson. My object lesson involved cupcakes. Other wards in other places used different object lessons, all of which were inappropriate. That's the point. Not cupcakes specifically. And again, you're misrepresenting me. I never said those object lessons were bona fide. They're not in the manual; I know that. They are widespread, and appear to be sanctioned by your church. They sanction them by doing nothing to stop them.

Really, it makes total sense that some Mormons would consider "licked cupcakes" permanently unclean. If a young woman or man breaks the law of chastity, they can't just pray for forgiveness. They must confess to their Bishop. Then, at least when I was a girl, the guilt-ridden teens would be denied the sacrament for a year, at minimum. Denied the very symbols of forgiveness. No, they're not easily forgiven - they're too dirty for Jesus. They have to endure the shame of confession, rejection, and then endure the humiliation of being publicly denied the symbols of the Atonement. They're dirty. And the damned Mormon church isn't going to let them forget it.

The issue between us is simple. You should take responsibility for your misrepresentations of me and apologize. But instead, you're just dropping out of the discussion. Whatever suits you. I'm standing my ground on this one.

KA

[Guest]

[get a better server]

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Can't please some folks. From your point of view the cupcake lesson is a regular bonifide lesson taught in most Wards and branches. I disagree. You see the issue in black and white, in my opinion, sorry for having an opinion that doesn't suit your taste in every case.
No hope for us, KA. I bid you goodbye forever. I will trouble you no more. :)

I'm actually easy to please. I expect apologies when they're owed me, and when I get them, I forgive. And I don't even require someone to die! See? I'm even nicer than God!

It's not just the cupcake lesson. My object lesson involved cupcakes. Other wards in other places used different object lessons, all of which were inappropriate. That's the point. Not cupcakes specifically. And again, you're misrepresenting me. I never said those object lessons were bona fide. They're not in the manual; I know that. They are widespread, and appear to be sanctioned by your church. They sanction them by doing nothing to stop them.

Really, it makes total sense that some Mormons would consider "licked cupcakes" permanently unclean. If a young woman or man breaks the law of chastity, they can't just pray for forgiveness. They must confess to their Bishop. Then, at least when I was a girl, the guilt-ridden teens would be denied the sacrament for a year, at minimum. Denied the very symbols of forgiveness. No, they're not easily forgiven - they're too dirty for Jesus. They have to endure the shame of confession, rejection, and then endure the humiliation of being publicly denied the symbols of the Atonement. They're dirty. And the damned Mormon church isn't going to let them forget it.

The issue between us is simple. You should take responsibility for your misrepresentations of me and apologize. But instead, you're just dropping out of the discussion. Whatever suits you. I'm standing my ground on this one.

KA

I will say this: I apologize for saying anything about your credibility; I should have kept my comments to what I disagreed or agreed with and left any mention of credibility out of it. Making it personal is dumb, and for that I truly apologize.

Regards!

[_harmony]

Really, it makes total sense that some Mormons would consider "licked cupcakes" permanently unclean. If a young woman or man breaks the law of chastity, they can't just pray for forgiveness. They must confess to their Bishop. Then, at least when I was a girl, the guilt-ridden teens would be denied the sacrament for a year, at minimum. Denied the very symbols of forgiveness. No, they're not easily forgiven - they're too dirty for Jesus. They have to endure the shame of confession, rejection, and then endure the humiliation of being publicly denied the symbols of the Atonement. They're dirty. And the damned Mormon church isn't going to let them forget it.

Time for a personal story: when my oldest son was a junior in high school, he had sex with his girlfriend once. She showed up pregnant shortly thereafter (she eventually lost the baby, and then confessed that she wasn't sure it was even my son's). He confessed and was put on probation. Eventually we sent him to live with a family member about an hour away for about 4 months, because his girlfriend followed him around school every day, crying all over him because he wouldn't marry her. He was on probation for 6 months total. No sacrament, no prayers, no priesthood responsibilities. He came home every weekend and met with the bishop.

Do I see his probation as a bad thing? Not entirely. It got him out of a really bad situation (part of the probation was he had to see the LDSSS counselor and that's where a lot of the lies she told came out). In one way, it was really bad though: he personally was used as an the object lesson at stake firesides and youth conferences. He was named by name as one who had sinned (he wasn't the only one named), in an effort to get the rampant sexual sin among youth in the stake under control. The stake president wanted to excommunicate him. My bishop put his foot down and refused to allow that, refusing to back down because my son wasn't endowed and he had not taken a vow of chastity. I really appreciate that bishop still today (he's now the stake president.)

We as parents became instant members of the Parents of Children Who Have Committed Sexual Sin Club. Prior to that time, I had no idea the club even existed. They were infinitely more supportive of me than the rank and file of my ward.

That was my first experience with the abuse of authority that shows up all too often in this church. What an eye opener. That stake president would have sacrificed my son as an easy fix to throw a scare into the rest of the youth of the stake. In some ways, I wish he had, but I think it would have destroyed my son, so I'm grateful to the bishop for exerting what little authority he had and backing the SP down.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I applaud the Bishop, and you as well.

[_harmony]

I applaud the Bishop, and you as well.

The day his probation was lifted, I walked up to him in the foyer of the church, lay my head on his chest (he's quite a bit taller than I am), and sobbed. It still makes me tear up, even though it was almost 20 years ago.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I applaud the Bishop, and you as well.

The day his probation was lifted, I walked up to him in the foyer of the church, lay my head on his chest (he's quite a bit taller than I am), and sobbed. It still makes me tear up, even though it was almost 20 years ago.

That is a great story, indeed. I appreciate you telling it.

[_KimberlyAnn]

LOaP, you are forgiven for being an asshole by implying my credibility was diminished. I DID NOT purposefully distort anything, which is generally implied in the term "misrepresentation". (I looked it up, just to make sure.) You used the wrong word, without a doubt. I was accused on MAD of making the cupcake story up "out of whole cloth", which is absurd, and your insinuation that my credibility was diminished just pissed me the hell off.

Perhaps I'll even do better than your Mormon church by only reminding you of your mistake for six months instead of a whole year. ;)

And, yes, I'll keep right on grinding that axe, thanks. (I saw that.)

KA

PS - Harmony, I'm sorry about what happened to your son. I know you're still a member, but God, I cannot stand what the Mormon church sometimes does to people! Your poor son. And you. I know about the club to which you belonged. I've seen the way some folks are treated by others in the ward when their children make "mistakes". It's cruel.

[_harmony]

PS - Harmony, I'm sorry about what happened to your son. I know you're still a member, but God, I cannot stand what the Mormon church sometimes does to people! Your poor son. And you. I know about the club to which you belonged. I've seen the way some folks are treated by others in the ward when their children make "mistakes". It's cruel.

In some ways, the probation wasn't a bad thing. He needed to be reminded of his responsibility to the family, if nothing else. It definitely cemented his relationship with his siblings, as they rallyed around him when things got bad in the community. He knew he wasn't alone, that he'd put us all in the spotlight, and that we supported him. He's a stand-up guy now, with strong ties to his entire family still, even though he's married and has five kids of his own. If any of his own children ever get into trouble, I'll be sure to remind him of his own teenage years. ;-)

What really pissed me off was the SP overstepping his stewardship. That was the first time I'd ever encountered that sort of thing, although it was certainly not the last with that particular SP. Whenever I hear of ecclesiastical abuse, I'm reminded of that SP, and how a little power, however undeserved and unworthily held, goes so quickly to the heads of some men.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

LOaP, you are forgiven for being an asshole by implying my credibility was diminished. I DID NOT purposefully distort anything, which is generally implied in the term "misrepresentation". (I looked it up, just to make sure.) You used the wrong word, without a doubt. I was accused on MAD of making the cupcake story up "out of whole cloth", which is absurd, and your insinuation that my credibility was diminished just pissed me the hell off.

There's no chance you made it up out of whole cloth, that's for certain. I could tell you were angry about it. Again, it's better to just address issues rather than people, because I don't really know you. And because it's a better policy in general, hence my editing of my former post here.