BYU faculty and the Book of Mormon

[_Chap]

As it is, folks are 'free' to make up excuses and/or create rationalizations for not believing.

I don't need to make up any excuses or rationalisations for not being convinced of the truth of Joseph Smith's claims in relation to his prophethood, or about the Book of Mormon.

It's the job of Mormons to convince me. They completely fail to do that (as do the proponents of a whole slew of other religions). I don't have to make any effort not to be convinced, or to resist belief. I am just sitting here and saying 'And that's really all you've got?'.

And they just don't have what it takes.

[_mentalgymnast]

I don't have to make any effort not to be convinced, or to resist belief. I am just sitting here and saying 'And that's really all you've got?'.

And they just don't have what it takes.

You're not alone.

Regards,
MG

[_Res Ipsa]

MG, did God know that L&L would reject him without excuse before he exposed them to this evidence?

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, did God know that L&L would reject him without excuse before he exposed them to this evidence?

I think so. Although with the caveat that I believe they were rejecting Nephi...the older brother...more than they were rejecting God. In fact, along the way they asked Nephi questions concerning the plan of salvation, tree of life, etc. They were curious as to why Nephi believed/acted as he did. I think that in their own way they were seeking God/truth.

Yes, they did see an angel according to the narrative. But we don't understand/know whether or not they understood that they were "left without excuse", inasmuch as what they were doing was directly impacting others and their beliefs/understanding of God's word/will. Again, they were more concerned with their brother and the power he was exercising over their authority as being the older brothers. I think they WERE left without excuse as to the treatment they administered to Nephi. I'm not so sure, however, that that are left without excuse and/or are accountable to God in respect to how their actions impacted other believers and/or the spreading of God's word.

In the case of the Book of Mormon witnesses, they purportedly saw/handled the plates and/or heard the angel. Their witness or rejection of that witness directly impacts thousands/millions of souls who investigate the CofJCofLDS, and it could be said, their salvation. Those witnesses are left without excuse when it comes to whether or not they are directly responsible for witnessing to the truth of the plates/angel and by association, the Book of Mormon. They are accountable for that. And yes, they had their struggles with testimony and following the prophet. But I think that even though they had greater accountability to God in some respects, relative to most of us, I think when the scales of justice/mercy are brought to the table...they'll do alright.

I could say more, but I'll leave it at that unless you want to respond.

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

It's not that free agency was enforced in this story as much as it was that Laman and Lemuel were left without excuse. They made their choice. They were then strictly accountable for their actions. No excuses.

So you are now moving from being forced, to free agency, but with more accountability for knowing more of what is true. I'm fine with that. It's good you are admitting to some level that one is not losing their free agency, which was wrong anyway. But it was your argument for why God wouldn't leave the plates behind. That and some how God likes the kind of faith based on little to no evidence.

True. But we would be left without excuse if we were to turn away from the truth. As it is, folks are 'free' to make up excuses and/or create rationalizations for not believing. I believe they will not be subject to the same accountability standard that they would if they had solid and undeniable evidence...such as the plates, for example.

I agree that the more we know the more should be expected of us, but it doesn't explain why God limit's our knowledge. Supposedly Lucifer knew what he was doing and will be sent to outer darkness. I would think the whole idea here is to let people know how things really are to see if they will follow what they know to be true or right. You cannot really be fairly punished until you have good information to be rejected. You would have to make an informed choice here or in the next life, so why not here? The real problem with Mormonism is inconsistent and irrational teachings.