Shulem Cracks Book of Mormon Geography

[MG 2.0]

Oliver was a sucker.

But of course. He had to be, right?

I don’t think that Oliver was an idiot or anything close to it. During the translation process Oliver would more than likely have been in on the con. He wasn’t stupid.

Joseph the genius, Oliver the idiot dupe.

I don’t think so. Your mileage may vary.

My gosh, you are making out Joseph to be a ‘long con’ schemer almost from day one.

That’s a HARD position to take in good conscience. In my opinion anyway.

But that’s the box you’ve been forced into. I get it.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

But that’s the box you’ve been forced into. I get it.

Yep, I'm in that box.

Look, Joseph was a genius and Oliver was the fool to follow him.

[MG 2.0]

But that’s the box you’ve been forced into. I get it.

Yep, I'm in that box.

Look, Joseph was a genius and Oliver was the fool to follow him.

You are mistaken in thinking Oliver was a fool.

“Oliver’s solid career as a responsible attorney and public servant is completely inconsistent” with the assumption of fraud on his part (see Anderson’s “Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses“).

So he wasn’t a fraud. And he wasn’t a fool. And yet he knew and worked with Joseph intimately. You only choice is ‘fool’. But that really doesn’t hold water.

“I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages), as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated it by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or, as it is called by that book, ‘holy interpreters.’ I beheld with my eyes and handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was translated. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the ‘holy interpreters.’ That book is true. Sidney Rigdon did not write it. Mr. (Solomon) Spaulding did not write it. I wrote it myself as it fell from the lips of the prophet. It contains the everlasting gospel. … It contains principles of salvation; and if you, my hearers, will walk by its light and obey its precepts, you will be saved with an everlasting salvation in the kingdom of God on high” (see “Last Days of Oliver Cowdery,” Deseret News, April 13, 1859, and Anderson’s “Reuben Miller, Recorder of Oliver Cowdery’s Reaffirmations,” BYU Studies, 1968).

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/oliver-co ... of-Mormon/

In a way I don’t envy you guys. You’ve painted yourselves into a corner with no escape. So then you have to come up with these alternative explanations.

Granted, that takes a LOT of creativity and brain power. I’ll hand you that.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Coin=Book of Mormon Geography theories.

No, it does not help. A coin has two sides. There are many Book of Mormon geography theories and some of them are so different they couldn't possibly share the same side of a coin.

I’m not saying “same side”.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Coin=Book of Mormon Geography theories.

No, it does not help. A coin has two sides. There are many Book of Mormon geography theories and some of them are so different they couldn't possibly share the same side of a coin.

This is what comes of not reading the thread!

And now he's pretending he didn't say it, even though he did, multiple times:

...The Delmarva theory... as proposed by Brandley.
...Shulem’s apparently parallel theory....
...his take on this preexisting theory...

...Interesting that Brandley’s theory is now being recycled.
... this recycled theory published anew...

READ THE THREAD!

---
Anyway, Shulem, back to your topic:

But remember, these maps and this narrative come to us through the dark pages of history.

If I read you correctly you are asking us to remember that the Book of Mormon maps and narrative come from ancient history. Not so. It was first conceived and written in 1829 by Joseph Smith. There is nothing ancient about the Book of Mormon other than the plagiarism contained therein. It is NOT ancient. Even the biblical writings that Smith copied and pasted are no older than 1611 AD.

Mormons may believe the Book of Mormon is from ancient history but the rest of the world certainly does not.

Absolutely. Most Mormons apparently don't either, I hear.

[MG 2.0]

Absolutely. Most Mormons apparently don't either, I hear.

So much for an original thought or any response to what I’ve said in regards to Oliver Cowdery, Wilford Woodruff, etc., etc.

You are one of those that has also painted yourself into a corner and you’re inside a box of your own making.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

You are one of those that has also painted yourself into a corner and you’re inside a box of your own making.

We can agree to disagree. I happen to believe that Cowdery was a fool for being fooled by Joseph Smith's spiritual trickery. That's what I believe. Of course Cowdery was an intelligent man and accomplished. I don't dispute that. But I maintain that the master deceiver (Smith) fooled Cowdery. And, 8 billion people in the world will agree with me as I sit in this world-sized box. You see, it's you, MG, that are in the little box. And that's how I see it. You can stay in the box for how ever long you need until you are satisfied and then move on to other things. Or you can die in that box. It's your choice.

So what do you think of Cowdery's dedicatory prayer for the dead bones at the vale of Cumorah? How about you share something of substance in that regard and talk about the geography? That would be nice.

[MG 2.0]

You are one of those that has also painted yourself into a corner and you’re inside a box of your own making.

We can agree to disagree. I happen to believe that Cowdery was a fool for being fooled by Joseph Smith's spiritual trickery. That's what I believe. Of course Cowdery was an intelligent man and accomplished. I don't dispute that. But I maintain that the master deceiver (Smith) fooled Cowdery.

You have to maneuver around a bit to take this position.

As one of three Book of Mormon witnesses, Oliver Cowdery testified that an angel displayed the gold plates and that the voice of God proclaimed them correctly translated. He was with Joseph Smith when John the Baptist restored to them the Aaronic Priesthood and when Peter, James, and John ordained them to the Melchizedek Priesthood and the apostleship, and again during the momentous Kirtland Temple visions (D&C 110).

Not once, not twice, not three times BUT FOUR times Oliver was privy to divine manifestations. To say that Joseph, on separate occasions, fooled a man of Oliver’s intelligence is a bit of a stretch. But again, you are forced to take the position that you have in order to fortify your views in regards to the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, First Vision, etc.

I get that.

By the way, I think Oliver believed the NY Cumorah to be THE Hill Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates and the last battles occurred.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

We can agree to disagree. I happen to believe that Cowdery was a fool for being fooled by Joseph Smith's spiritual trickery. That's what I believe. Of course Cowdery was an intelligent man and accomplished. I don't dispute that. But I maintain that the master deceiver (Smith) fooled Cowdery.

You have to maneuver around a bit to take this position....

Not once, not twice, not three times BUT FOUR times Oliver was privy to divine manifestations. To say that Joseph, on separate occasions, fooled a man of Oliver’s intelligence is a bit of a stretch.

I'll defer to Shulem on this but in the meantime, saying someone was "privy to divine manifestations" is exactly the definition of someone fooled by trickery.

But again, you are forced to take the position that you have in order to fortify your views in regards to the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, First Vision, etc.

I get that.

you're quite the piece of work, mentalgymnast. This passive-aggressive technique is pretty old school but I get that the Wasatch Front upbringing is hard to shake. You'd be a hoot at a Sci-Fi convention, though.

By the way, I think Oliver believed the NY Cumorah to be THE Hill Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates and the last battles occurred.

He believed the Book of Mormon was actually true history. So, being fooled by trickery was par for the course for him, then. You're not really helping your case.

[MG 2.0]

We can agree to disagree. I happen to believe that Cowdery was a fool for being fooled by Joseph Smith's spiritual trickery. That's what I believe. Of course Cowdery was an intelligent man and accomplished. I don't dispute that. But I maintain that the master deceiver (Smith) fooled Cowdery.

You have to maneuver around a bit to take this position....

Not once, not twice, not three times BUT FOUR times Oliver was privy to divine manifestations. To say that Joseph, on separate occasions, fooled a man of Oliver’s intelligence is a bit of a stretch.

I'll defer to Shulem on this but in the meantime, saying someone was "privy to divine manifestations" is exactly the definition of someone fooled by trickery.

But again, you are forced to take the position that you have in order to fortify your views in regards to the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, First Vision, etc.

I get that.

you're quite the piece of work, mentalgymnast. This passive-aggressive technique is pretty old school but I get that the Wasatch Front upbringing is hard to shake. You'd be a hoot at a Sci-Fi convention, though.

By the way, I think Oliver believed the NY Cumorah to be THE Hill Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates and the last battles occurred.

He believed the Book of Mormon was actually true history. So, being fooled by trickery was par for the course for him, then. You're not really helping your case.

Shallow.

Regards,
MG