Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[MG 2.0]

Maybe you made a comment on this and I’m not remembering it.

I listed some core doctrines off the top of my head and then we got sidetracked when some posters wanted to go full bore on what is core doctrine or not. What got lost in the middle of all that was a question in regards to peripheral questions/issues held up along side core doctrines. Which holds greater weight. My argument is that core doctrines are primary and everything else is secondary.

Your responses seemed to indicate that you thought it to be the other way around. I also was curious as to what others thought in that regard. But then things went off the rails which is not uncommon, and some folks decided to go with mild ad hominem and try and tie things off.

It may happen again.

I haven’t been around today to do any follow up.

So yeah, I’d be interested in your thoughts. In my mind this is kind of a critical issue. There seem to be more folks leaving the church because of peripheral issues even after they supposedly had a testimony and/or spiritual witness of the core doctrines.

In my opinion that is unfortunate and sad.

Regards,
MG

The first thing the missionaries tell you to do is read the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is not historical. That is not a peripheral issue.

These two links solidify the core teachings and doctrines of the CofJCofLDS:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... trines.pdf

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Not off the top of my head this time.

Book of Mormon is a peripheral to the core doctrines. It is not ‘a doctrine’.

The second thing the missionaries do is tell you to take the discussions. These discussions focus on priesthood and authority.

You will find references to priesthood authority in the listed core doctrines of the church.

Examples of the brethren being dishonest and immoral undermine that authority. It is not a peripheral issue.

Questioning authority is an ‘issue’. It is peripheral to the ‘core doctrine’ of priesthood authority.

If the core of Mormonism is Christ, then why do missionaries teach the Book of Mormon and priesthood and authority?

The core doctrines are in the two lists I posted. Christ is cornerstone to the doctrines. Missionaries teach the core doctrines using the Book of Mormon and other scriptures to do so. The scriptures are tools.

It’s because those are the core of the church, and those are the problematic parts.

The core doctrines, again, have been listed. The issues that people have are peripheral to the core doctrines.

Historicity issues and authority issues can be argued both pro and con on multiple fronts without resolution. So the core doctrines are the foundation that believers base their faith on. They remain intact. To use unresolved periphery issues as reason/logic to disbelieve or have hope/faith in core doctrines…especially when so much rides on it…is, shall we say, risky business.

But some folks are willing to take that risk based on issues that are on the periphery and are unresolved.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

MG,

Do missionaries no longer give investigators a Book of Mormon to read and ask them to pray for confirmation that the book is true?

If this is not the core of the church, why is it the center of missionary baptisms?

[I Have Questions]

The core doctrines, again, have been listed.

a couple of points on this for clarity.

Firstly, your list was erroneous as I’ve demonstrated. So you don’t really know, off the top of your head, what represents actual doctrines of the church, versus your erroneous version of what you think the Church teaches.

Secondly, your lists are just that. Your lists. They represent your opinion, they do not represent what the Church states are its core doctrines.

Please feel free to post a link to an official Church statement that lists a definitive and specific list of what are the core doctrines of the religion.

[MG 2.0]

Hi drumdude and IHAQ,
I’m noticing on ongoing pattern here, as are others, I’m sure. Let me point it out if it’s not obvious.

You are circumventing a question/interest that I’ve expressed repeatedly during this thread.

Deflection.

You will either find some way and continue to evade or you will simply answer the question and then we can move on. From past experience and reading forums/boards over the years I get the fact that critics are loathe to accept that there are doctrines and doctrinal positions that the church takes/has.

In my previous post I listed two reputable sources to go to in order to get a fairly good idea as to what the basic doctrines of the church are.

For our purposes I’m hoping that you will consider taking that at face value so that you can both answer the question I’ve put before you rather than continuing to evade it.

I’m just asking for an opinion.

Thanks,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I will refer back to the section of a recent post where I brought up the interest/question that I would like a response to, if you are willing:

What got lost in the middle of all that was a question in regards to peripheral questions/issues held up along side core doctrines. Which holds greater weight. My argument is that core doctrines are primary and everything else is secondary.

Your responses seemed to indicate that you thought it to be the other way around. I also was curious as to what others thought in that regard.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Hi drumdude and IHAQ,
I’m noticing on ongoing pattern here, as are others, I’m sure. Let me point it out if it’s not obvious.

You are circumventing a question/interest that I’ve expressed repeatedly during this thread.

Deflection.

You will either find some way and continue to evade or you will simply answer the question and then we can move on. From past experience and reading forums/boards over the years I get the fact that critics are loathe to accept that there are doctrines and doctrinal positions that the church takes/has.

In my previous post I listed two reputable sources to go to in order to get a fairly good idea as to what the basic doctrines of the church are.

For our purposes I’m hoping that you will consider taking that at face value so that you can both answer the question I’ve put before you rather than continuing to evade it.

I’m just asking for an opinion.

Thanks,
MG

I’ve looked back through the past two responses you posted to me and I don’t see any question marks. I’m happy to answer them, I just need direct questions.

I am arguing that there’s a difference between what the brethren say are the core doctrines and what in practice are the actual core doctrines of the church.

[MG 2.0]

Hi drumdude and IHAQ,
I’m noticing on ongoing pattern here, as are others, I’m sure. Let me point it out if it’s not obvious.

You are circumventing a question/interest that I’ve expressed repeatedly during this thread.

Deflection.

You will either find some way and continue to evade or you will simply answer the question and then we can move on. From past experience and reading forums/boards over the years I get the fact that critics are loathe to accept that there are doctrines and doctrinal positions that the church takes/has.

In my previous post I listed two reputable sources to go to in order to get a fairly good idea as to what the basic doctrines of the church are.

For our purposes I’m hoping that you will consider taking that at face value so that you can both answer the question I’ve put before you rather than continuing to evade it.

I’m just asking for an opinion.

Thanks,
MG

I’ve looked back through the past two responses you posted to me and I don’t see any question marks. I’m happy to answer them, I just need direct questions.

I am arguing that there’s a difference between what the brethren say are the core doctrines and what in practice are the actual core doctrines of the church.

From my previous post:

What got lost in the middle of all that was a question in regards to peripheral questions/issues held up along side core doctrines. Which holds greater weight? My argument is that core doctrines are primary and everything else is secondary.

Your responses seemed to indicate that you thought it to be the other way around? I also was curious as to what others thought in that regard?

I plugged in some question marks for you. The peripheral issues are those such as the ones you listed way back in the thread:

1) Believe Jews sailed to the Americas in 600BC
2) Pay tithing to the LDS corporation so it can be used to build shopping malls that sell alcohol
3) Don’t practice oral sex during the 70s when the church taught it was a sin
4) Miss out on temple blessings before 1978 if you are black
5) Don’t get baptized if you are the child of a gay parent between the years 2015 and 2018

On and on and on. If the church ever was restored, it is a j need of another restoration. In my opinion.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

1) Historicity of the Book of Mormon is a core doctrine. DCP says if you believe it’s not historical you must keep that to yourself to remain a member in good standing. I agree with him.

2) Tithing is a core doctrine. You cannot get married in the temple if you are not a full tithe payer.

3-5)Obeying the brethren even if they’re wrong is a core doctrine. The brethren are very often demonstrably wrong.


All of these hold great weight because if you go against them you are either excommunicated, or lose out on temple blessings, or are asked not to speak at church. Anything that holds such consequences must, in my opinion, be a core doctrine and not merely be just a peripheral issue.

[MG 2.0]

1) Historicity of the Book of Mormon is a core doctrine. DCP says if you believe it’s not historical you must keep that to yourself to remain a member in good standing. I agree with him.

2) Tithing is a core doctrine. You cannot get married in the temple if you are not a full tithe payer.

3-5)Obeying the brethren even if they’re wrong is a core doctrine. The brethren are very often demonstrably wrong.


All of these hold great weight because if you go against them you are either excommunicated, or lose out on temple blessings, or are asked not to speak at church. Anything that holds such consequences must, in my opinion, be a core doctrine and not merely be just a peripheral issue.

Thanks for your response, drumdude. Tithing is a core doctrine at this time. I mentioned that earlier. It is part of the Law of Sacrifice. The law of sacrifice is a key component in living the gospel. Those that are unwilling to make sacrifices for the Lord and His church would find that they may become somewhat weak and/or lukewarm in the faith.

If one doesn’t have a belief in the Book of Mormon being part of the canon of scripture and having key authority in outlining and teaching the truths of God one would find that they my become somewhat weak and/or lukewarm in the faith.

If one doesn’t sustain the Brethren as being called of God and holding the keys of the Kingdom of God on earth there is a likelihood that this person will become somewhat weak and/or lukewarm in the faith.

If you are struggling in one or more of the three things you’ve mentioned, in all likelihood you will have a difficult time with the basic core doctrines of the church listed earlier.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Tithing is a core doctrine at this time. I mentioned that earlier...

And earlier?

...I didn’t even mention tithing as being a core doctrine...

Your inconsistencies make it very difficult to have a productive conversation with you.

1) Historicity of the Book of Mormon is a core doctrine. DCP says if you believe it’s not historical you must keep that to yourself to remain a member in good standing. I agree with him.

2) Tithing is a core doctrine. You cannot get married in the temple if you are not a full tithe payer.

3-5)Obeying the brethren even if they’re wrong is a core doctrine. The brethren are very often demonstrably wrong.


All of these hold great weight because if you go against them you are either excommunicated, or lose out on temple blessings, or are asked not to speak at church. Anything that holds such consequences must, in my opinion, be a core doctrine and not merely be just a peripheral issue.

All of your list shows up in the latest link given as basic doctrines of the LDS church. They are not peripheral issues, they are the core of the LDS church. I have mostly the same issues with them that you do.