2nd Watson Letter just found!'

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_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

DaniteDan wrote:is there a link to the Hamblin article ?


Yes, DaniteDan, read it here: http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=2&num=1&id=25, relevant portion about 40% of the way through, under the heading Latter-day Saint General Authorities and the Limited Geography Model.
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_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

cksalmon wrote:
Nimrod wrote:Bill Hamblin--come out and defend yourself; DCP's been covering for you, but the cracks in his defense indicate it is soon to fall. The extent of his defense has been: I've seen the 2nd Watson Letter, and the Carla Ogden Fax is not it. With 16 years of memory fade and degradation, FARMS' inability to produce a copy of the 2nd Watson Letter leaves DCP's defense of you in imminent shambles.


Dr. Hamblin is in Israel, hasn't posted on MADB in months, and is likely not aware of anything being posted to either one of the fora.

cks


I am sure that DCP knows how to contact Hamblin by e-mail, but is hoping this will have all blown over by the time Hamblin returns. Also, it seems that Hamblin monitors the Rah-Rah Board. He posted on 9/23/2009 after a 4 month hiatus. I know of no reason that Hamblin has stopped his lurking. So much discussion of late about Hamblin's 1993 article and the legitimacy of his quoted source being called into question, Hamblin's silence looks more likely hiding than real absence. DCP being the good colleague of Hamblin would no doubt alert Hamblin to his professional integrity being called into question so that Hamblin could rebut and refute the allegations.

Hamblin's last postings on the Rah-Rah Board about the 2nd Watson Letter simply uses flippancy to deflect the real question. DCP had just explained on April 18, 2009 that

"The '2nd Watson Letter' is a brief letter from Michael Watson, then the secretary to the First Presidency, that was quoted in an article by Bill Hamblin that was published in the FARMS Review quite a few years ago. The original of the letter vanished, eons back, into the black hole that is Professor Hamblin's office -- a model of organization, precision, and efficiency, compared to my own -- and has not been seen by mortals since that time, though Professor Hamblin and the FARMS Review source checker and the FARMS publications director and the FARMS Review production editor and I all saw it during the preparation of the article for publication. Two or three very vocal critics of FARMS, however, pretend to suspect that we made the letter up, attributing views to the First Presidency that they do not, in fact, hold, and that we brazenly published our forgery for all to see. (They plainly don't wear their tin-foil hats as much as they should.)"

Then Hamblin jotted (http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 1208641786):

"I don't understand how Dan can always get things so wrong. You see, the First Presidency paid me a vast fortune in Mopologist treasure to forge a letter that does not represent the position that they are paying me to promulgate. (They just have a tendency to do such irrational things.)

"And if you believe that, I've got some AIG stock I'd like to sell you."

Back to the future, DCP today posts on Rah-Rah Board:

"Spell it out, cks. I saw a letter from Michael Watson. The JBMS cites a letter from Michael Watson: "Correspondence from Michael Watson, Office of the First Presidency, 23 April 1993." Nobody at FARMS misattributed that. Nobody substituted Michael Watson for Carla Ogden. (I've never heard of Carla Ogden.)
* * *
"Nobody at the Maxwell Institute has ever looked for a corroborating copy of the Watson letter, because nobody at the Maxwell Institute doubts the existence of the one cited in the JBMS".

DCP is unequivocal in stating he has never heard of Carla Ogden. So DCP apparently did not have the standing inside FARMS in April 1993 to be included in the ~6 (that included Sorenson and Hamblin) that received circulated copies of Carla Ogden Fax. DCP knows only of a letter from Michael Watson himself.

DCP declaratively pronounces that no one at FARMS has ever looked for a corroborating copy of the Watson letter. How would FARMS know it was lost/misplaced if no one has ever looked for it?

DCP declaratively pronounces that nobody at FARMS doubts the existence of the April 23, 1993 letter cited in the JBMS. I wonder if that is because DCP has issued an edict to the FARMerS that they must not question whether there ever was such a letter, or DCP has merely conducted interviews with everyone at FARMS and deduced this from his investigation. In either case, I'm starting to envision those at FARMS being like the 'Stepford Wives'.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_DaniteDan
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _DaniteDan »

I read part where Hamblin quotes Watson:

"The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography. While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanations [for Book of Mormon geography] because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site."

My question is - can/does it have historical value if you cannot find its geography. Maybe it would be better to say that the Book of Mormon has doctrinal value. Maybe that was the tenth letter Watson fired off that afternoon and he didn't think that quickly typing a letter would have generated so much controversy. But if you don't know the geography then prospective converts (even prospective missionaries) need to know that - thousands of missionaries are likely saying south America or north America.
If one is forever cautious, can one remain a human being?"

Alexander Solzhenitsyn
_Ray A

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Ray A »

This has turned into a merry go round.

DCP.

I stand by my story.

It was a letter. Not a fax. From Michael Watson. Not from Carla Ogden.

Let the accusations continue.


Greg Smith threw a cat amongst the pigeons, and he's probably mistaken. With both DCP and Hamblin standing by their story onlookers will have to decide whether they were lying, hallucinating or telling the truth, short of someone with a bit of kick making inquiries of the secretary to the First Presidency (whoever that is now), or contacting Michael Watson, who may perchance remember the incident.

It's turned into a "he said/she said".
_Sethbag
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Sethbag »

I see no particular reason to doubt that the 2nd Watson letter existed. So what if it did? Is the church any less manmade if it did? On the contrary, its existence rather demonstrates the manmade nature of the church, as it stands as an example of the leadership of the church speaking out of both sides of their mouth, depending on who is asking.

At this point this looks like just attacking DCP because he is "our enemy", so of course he must be brought down. I don't favor that type of attitude. DCP may be an advocate and defender for what I consider a manmade belief system of which I am critical, but that doesn't make him my enemy.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

Now, our Benevolent Oppressor at the Rah-Rah Board is getting fun. His latest tactic is a bit of a self-deprecating strawman approach: reminiscent of the guy who accused of thinking himself perfect admits he once made a mistake, the time he questioned himself and thought he might of erred but it turned out he was correct all along.

A couple of hours ago, DCP posted (http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208773502)

"Alright.

"It's been more than sixteen years.

"I'm not infallible.

"Maybe my memory is unbelievably faulty.

"Maybe I'm losing my mind.

"Maybe (as one of the more charitable residents of the Compound -- these things are all relative -- has suggested earlier today), I'm suffering from age-related dementia."

Then he explains he in fact has a means of communication with Bill Hamblin (texting to/fro Hamblin's iPhone somewhere around the Mediterranean). DCP asked Hamblin whether the 1993 Watson letter might have been a fax from Carla Ogden. Hamblin replies, "It was a letter from Watson. It was not a fax."

Cleansed of his self-doubt, DCP pronounces--

"I stand by my story.

"It was a letter. Not a fax. From Michael Watson. Not from Carla Ogden."

Even Brent Metcalfe today had been trying to lead DCP to water, but he refuses to drink. Metcalfe offers DCP the out that DCP can admit to fallible memory but not to lying. But DCP's neck cannot be bowed; he will not drink. He will not, but in the most feigning of tones, admit to any fallibility.

Calmoriah, one of the first level sycophants of DCP on the Rah-Rah Board, tries to re-cast the discussion on his own terms. Sort of like teeing up a golf ball for DCP then to hit with his driver. Cal insinuates that the criticisms surrounding the 2nd Watson Letter boil down to unsubtantiated claims that the Carla Watson Fax was forged at FARMS. Since I've been asked already, no this was a simple error, not intended. Cal attempts to strip away from the discussion two coincidences and one distinction between the Hamblin's 1993 write-up about the Watson-Hamblin correspondence of 4/23/1993 that has conveniently been missing ever since, and the recently surfaced Ogden Fax:

Coincidence #1, Cal says must not be the issue, because it happens all the time in government offices that two people get the identical letter if it is a form letter.

Coincidence #2, Cal says must not be the issue, because it is hardly surprising that two people in the same government office would issued the same agreed-upon standard response.

Distinction #1, Cal says must not be the issue, because it happens all the time in university and store offices that one response might be a 'fax with the usual brevity, by the other snail mail with a more standard salutation'.

Cal then asks why someone would be led to believe the Ogden Fax to be a forgery? and for what purpose was it forged?

My concerns are not forgery, but FARMS certainly had motive enough to do that in the absence of an actual '2nd Watson Letter'. My concerns are about the authority Ms. Carla Ogden had to speak on behalf of the First Presidency, why her position is not identified, and why her fax was not signed (signature block present or not). My concerns also surround why FARMS is so willing to accept this specious Ogden Fax as refutation of the 1st Watson Letter--you know, the one on Office of the First Presidency letterhead, signature block and signature of Secretary Watson showing.

DCP seems to understand what the concerns are, though he certainly does not share them. To DCP's credit, he 'rights the ship' of topic that Cal tried to capsize, by responding in part--

"it seems to be that Bill Hamblin or Brent Hall or somebody received this fax from Carla Ogden, and then, in a deliberate effort to exaggerate its significance, misrepresented it as a letter, on letterhead, from the far higher-ranked Michael Watson. (We [FARMS] should, I suppose, have gone for Ezra Taft Benson himself while we were at it.)"

Indeed, ETB would have been a good source to tap, but apparently was not.

Then DCP steps back a bit from his absolutist statement of this morning (those are at http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208773415), by circumscribing them both in reach of individuals and that this merry band of faith defenders would not be "so brazenly dishonest and so unbelievably foolish as to have attempted such a stunt" as to have "flatly made the thing up ex nihilo."

It strains credulity for FARMS to suggest that when the Ogden Fax was received on 4/23/1993, ~6 copies were made and circulated by Brent Hall, but when the real, distinct Watson letter arrived by snail mail, it was of so little consequence by comparison that no copies were made and circulated to be found, for example, among Sorenson's files. After lifting a quote from the uncopied original, Hamblin misplaced it in his messy office, not to be found for 16 years now and counting.

DCP, I applaud you for taking the suggestion and contacting Hamblin. Now perhaps you'll jot off a request to the Office of the First Presidency either to provide you with a copy it has in its files of the 4/23/1993 Watson-to-Hamblin letter or for a new shiny one that says that LDS doctrine does not include so specific of geography as to place the Book of Mormon Cumorah in New York state. Not only would that help quiet the dogs here at the old 'pound, but be a reaffirmation that the LDS faithful do not have to choose between the orthodoxy faith and FARMS apologetics. Sixteen years after Hamblin presaged that the First Presidency itself, not just some unknown staffer named Ogden, would do so would add so much to the credibility of FARMS among the LDS faithful.

You can do it, DCP, just put one foot in front of the other, and then the next step...
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_Ray A

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Ray A »

Perhaps a minor point about Hamblin's quote in his JBMS article that has always left me wondering is why he didn't use quotation marks, or indent the quote, as he does liberally throughout his article with other sources.

["]The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography. While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanations [for Book of Mormon geography] because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site.["] (JBMS)

According to the Ogden fax four additional words were added after "specific site....":

"that has been suggested."

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I would think that someone quoting someone else, especially from an authoritative document, would at least insert quotation marks.

Maybe Hamblin left out those last four words because he felt that a "specific site" (Mesoamerica) does match the Book of Mormon. If so, there is no acknowledgement with ellipses. Rather careless, really.

Just a minor observation that may not have any relevance.
_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

If I understand what the small handful of the crazier conspiracy theorists are currently claiming -- and I'll admit that I just skim their effusions, without reading them very carefully, let alone trying to parse them as if they were actually important documents -- it seems to be that Bill Hamblin or Brent Hall or somebody received this fax from Carla Ogden, and then, in a deliberate effort to exaggerate its significance, misrepresented it as a letter, on letterhead, from the far higher-ranked Michael Watson. (We should, I suppose, have gone for Ezra Taft Benson himself while we were at it.) The most radical position of my Malevolent Stalker's merry little band appears to have morphed from the earlier claim that we flatly made the thing up ex nihilo -- a position that they have apparently quietly recognized as untenable, in view of the surfacing of an identically-worded fax from the Office of the First Presidency (though at least one die-hard loon apparently believes that we may have forged it) -- to the somewhat more nuanced claim that we've simply lied about the nature of the communication and about the name of its author.

I unequivocally deny this. Neither Matt Roper, nor William Hamblin, nor Brent Hall, nor Dan Peterson, nor anybody else with whom I work or ever have worked at BYU or in FARMS is so brazenly dishonest and so unbelievably foolish as to have attempted such a stunt.


Oh, for heaven’s sake. Is it too much to ask if DCP is going to “return and report” to the safety of the hive that he bothered to do more than just “skim, without reading them very carefully?”

I will speak for myself. I do not believe there was a conspiracy of some sort, nor do I believe that people were deliberately exaggerating and/or lying, with one exception, and that exception may also be explained by miscommunication. Here’s what I think happened:

I think that the fax is, indeed, the 2nd Watson letter. I think that human memory is incredibly fluid and highly susceptible to the power of suggestion. As years passed, the memory of people involved took on the suggestion of a direct letter from Watson, because it was being used to refute the first Watson letter. I don’t think it was deliberate, and when DCP and Hamblin insist it was a letter from Watson, not a fax from Ogden, I believe they are sincere. I also believe that chances are good they are wrong. While it is possible that duplicates were sent out of this letter to different persons in different format, there is no necessity for creating that “out”, when human memory is such an obvious explanation. Our memories tend to morph into what is most useful and helpful to us. This is not unique to apologists – it is true for all human beings.

I think that nimrod nailed it with this observation:

If there is not a 2d Watson Letter separate from the Carla Ogden Fax, then there is a lot for which Bill Hamblin has to answer. If so, it was back in 1993 when Hamblin lifted a quote from the Carla Ogden Fax (to Brent Hall on 4/23/1993) and placed that quote in the article Hamblin authored, claiming the quote was from a letter from Watson to Hamblin of the exact same date and content as the Carla Ogden Fax. Unless there was a 2nd Watson Letter distinct from the Carla Ogden Fax, to get the quote right Hamblin was looking at the Carla Ogden Fax when he wrote that it was a letter from Watson. Sixteen years of memory decay may explain DCP's current insistence, but not what Bill Hamblin most likely did back in 1993 given that FARMS cannot produce a copy of the mythical '2nd Watson Letter'.


I think this is why DCP is being intractable on the issue. He doesn’t want to put Hamblin in a corner. The fallibility of human memory, or miscommunications and erroneous assumptions, can explain every other part of this story except this one. Hamblin had to be looking at the letter. It is possible that he was simply a bit sloppy in his presentation at the time, and his own memory has since accommodated him, as well. Someone made Hamblin a copy, and it came (we guess) from Watson’s office, so perhaps referring to it as a letter to him from Watson seemed acceptable. But admitting that this is possible is clearly not a possibility for DCP.

Roper has plausible deniability against any suggestion that he thought the Carla Ogden Fax was the '2nd Watson Letter'. Roper merely described it to Dr. Smith as 'the fax about Cumorah'. Nevertheless, Roper ought to shed light on whether he in fact thought the Carla Ogden Fax to be the 2nd Watson Letter when he mailed the Carla Ogden Fax to Dr. Smith circa 12/2/2009? and what was previously discussed between he (Roper) and Dr. Smith about a fax about Cumorah so that with such a cryptic reference Roper thought that Dr. Smith would understand it to be just the Carla Ogden Fax, despite Dr. Smith thinking it was in fact the '2nd Watson Letter.'


Yes, that is a good explanation, and requires no deliberate deception.

That’s part of what I find entertaining about all this. As seth said, the existence of the letter is no big deal in terms of the LDS church's truth claims. But I do enjoy watching the spinning.

by the way, DCP, yes, it’s true, our memory tends to deteriorate as we age. Observing that is not the same as accusing one of “dementia.” But you already know this. You just enjoy exaggerating your opponent’s claims for the use of hyperbole….even when you, by your own admission, don’t read their words carefully.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

by the way, DCP just insinuated that scratch is really brent metcalfe. Scratch, I would take that as a very fine compliment.

The obsessive but seemingly unmotivated drive for vengeance, the weird and unremitting personal hostility, the bizarre multiyear campaign, the faux-civility, the desperate need for anonymity . . .

Wow.

It all begins to come into focus.

Could it be true?

If so, how truly, stunningly, pathetic.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Ray A »

Another oddity I just noticed is that when you place your cursor over the scan of the fax, the pop-up box (transcript) also omits: "that has been suggested".

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... ncy_Letter

I understand the pop-up transcript was added by Greg Smith. It's in harmony with the Hamblin quote, but not the fax. So why would he add what claims to be a "transcript" of the fax, yet omit "that has been suggested"? He hasn't transcribed the whole fax.
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