What is a spiritual experience?

[MG 2.0]

Are you defining the Jewish ritual of shuckling as "spiritual autism"? Could you explain what you mean by that, please?

No, I am not making that definition, however, people with autism frequently make a rocking motion.

Be grateful you haven’t received the same amount of flak I have…although I think you may have transgressed in your comments.

Personal opinion.

It sure wasn’t anything that I would have pictured or come up with.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Personal opinion.

It sure wasn’t anything that I would have pictured or come up with.

Regards,
MG

Marcus favors you because of your lack of transgressions, otherwise, she takes her role as the punisher most seriously.

[IWMP]

Church gives quite a clear and distinct vibe about what the spirit should feel like. I don't think this defined my spirituality though.

I think that there is the ‘common experience’ that usually takes center stage. But you’re you. You’re different. God will speak to you as YOU connect with the transcendent. That which is above and beyond that which under normal circumstances can only be touched and felt through our five senses.

If you’re anything like me you might feel at times as though you are on a spiritual autism spectrum.

That’s OK. Again…THAT’S OK. We’re all built differently. Differently doesn’t mean better. Just different.

The thing is, I think we can also connect with God through other modalities such as nature, thought and introspection, other people, children, reading good literature, good music, scripture, prayer, etc.

The list can be rather long. But it’s not always ‘cookie cutter”.

Best wishes in your own spiritual journey and connection with the divine. Whatever leads towards Christ, in my opinion, leads towards the greater light, including the Father of all lights.

The CofJCofLDS acts as the conduit to do that, however imperfectly we might travel the path.

Take care. Best wishes in being a mom.

Regards,
MG

Thank you <3

[IWMP]

Are you defining the Jewish ritual of shuckling as "spiritual autism"? Could you explain what you mean by that, please?

No, I am not making that definition, however, people with autism frequently make a rocking motion.

Can you explain please?

Edit, to remove over sharing and again to add edit reason.

[Marcus]

Be grateful you haven’t received the same amount of flak I have…although I think you may have transgressed in your comments.

Personal opinion.

It sure wasn’t anything that I would have pictured or come up with.

Regards,
MG

Marcus favors you because of your lack of transgressions, otherwise, she takes her role as the punisher most seriously.

Lol. Finding your humor sometimes not funny and <gasp!> expressing that opinion out loud is being "the punisher"?

I find it ironic that you are so thin-skinned. But then, comedy should always be agreed with, right? It's the polite thing to do, otherwise the child's feelings get hurt.

[Gadianton]

Your example of Mayan priests is one of many examples in which the light was lost as the value of human life became twisted through religious ritual.

So what you're saying is that given enough time, faiths that rely on "foolish traditions" or ritual, as the Book of Mormon puts it, like say, the Catholic Church, can and will twist into unrecognizable horrors?

Anyway, you seem to be reaching for anything and everything to save your point, complicating the picture as much as possible. We now have "spiritual autism", ritual, which is suddenly antithetical to religious experience, and suddenly there are false spirits also. That came after you wrote about the Mayan priests as corrupted by ritual, and I'm amazed by your granular knowledge of these things. First, you castigate Mayan religion as not a variety of spiritual truth, right after you said that you can't be the judge. And then, somehow you know that Mayans in particular lost their way as "corrupt Catholics" so to speak -- but how do you know that they simply aren't "autistic" or listening to false spirits? How do you determine when a person doing something you judge as spiritual wrong even after you say you can't judge, how do you determine whether they lack the sixth sense, are corrupt by ritual, or listening to a false spirit? You seem to be able to call every case.

[MG 2.0]

Your example of Mayan priests is one of many examples in which the light was lost as the value of human life became twisted through religious ritual.

So what you're saying is that given enough time, faiths that rely on "foolish traditions" or ritual, as the Book of Mormon puts it, like say, the Catholic Church, can and will twist into unrecognizable horrors?

I used the word twisted. Meaning corrupted. Just as light and images can be distorted through various mediums and/or filters, truth can be corrupted/twisted. Those that commit whoredoms or in your example of human sacrifice, murder, are doing so under a twisted/corrupted view of the innate value of human life. Sure, there might be more to it, but at the end of the day the spiritual inclinations have morphed into something that devalues the liberty and freedoms of others. That has happened over and over again throughout history.

Kripal would, I think, still recognize that for these people that have caused mayhem and pain as a result of religious belief and/or principles, they are still acting upon spiritual inclinations and operations that they believe in and see as being the ‘real deal’. So for that we can’t fault them.

I hope that clarifies things a bit. I could go on. Like you, I’ve done due diligence trying to dovetail the human breadth and depth (or lack of depth) of belief and practice into a world that I believe was created by an all knowing and loving God. Paramount at the top of this schema is the concept of free agency and/or free will. We’ve bantered back and forth on this many times on this board. Greater minds than ours have tackled this ‘problem’ of free will and agency. At the end of the day I believe that God has to make things ‘work’ with free will/agency remaining intact. Thoroughly and completely.

You used the word “horrors” in connection with the Catholic Church. Again, I wouldn’t necessarily use that word. You may have used it in order to promote or make a certain point that fits in with your schema of there being no over ruling force or entity in the universe.

Anyway, you seem to be reaching for anything and everything to save your point, complicating the picture as much as possible.

I do think it all gets rather complicated. It’s important, at least to me, to try and tease out as much as possible. Besides that, it’s fun.

We now have "spiritual autism", ritual, which is suddenly antithetical to religious experience…

The ritual can be seen as religious experience and have real meaning to the practitioners. We need to recognize it as such and not disregard it or condemn it, or its adherents, as we look on it from afar.

You are now packing in spiritual autism to the same package as religious ritual practiced by the Mayans as being one and the same? Sure, there may have been those individual then as well as now that were less ‘in tune’ with the traditional views of what those folks considered to be ‘spirituality’. If that’s what you’re saying then I suppose we can keep going.

Suddenly? Not quite sure where you’re going with that. Spiritual autism doesn’t necessarily separate one from religious experience. It can, but doesn’t need to. I have religious experiences but maybe not in the same way that someone else does.

That’s my point.

…and suddenly there are false spirits also.

False spirits, in my opinion, are beliefs and practices that lead away from rather than towards goodness. Now, if we can’t agree on what goodness is I suppose that would have to be another discussion.

That came after you wrote about the Mayan priests as corrupted by ritual, and I'm amazed by your granular knowledge of these things.

From our perspective they were corrupted. For them, however, their practices were real, they were true, and they had great meaning in their society and community of believers. Here’s the thing. I think that God ‘sees’ all of this and works in and through all things. Including what we might view as those practices and beliefs that lack ‘goodness’ and truth. But then again, that’s relative to whether or not we do or don’t have access to a greater amount of light and truth.

I believe the CofJCofLDS does. We can agree to disagree on that point. That’s fine. You’re coming from a different place.

…you castigate Mayan religion as not a variety of spiritual truth…

I hope you can see that it is not and ‘either/or’ here. I get a bit frustrated when I’m having to deal with if/then constructions that are made out to be all comprehensive and inclusive. It derails a discussion into an argument between only two colors, black and white.

That’s not the way I operate.

…right after you said that you can't be the judge.

I can’t. Kripal would agree with me I think.

And then, somehow you know that Mayans in particular lost their way as "corrupt Catholics" so to speak -- but how do you know that they simply aren't "autistic" or listening to false spirits?

Groups and individuals throughout history may have ‘lost their way’ in regards to having access to and practicing ‘true religion’ in its fullness. That doesn’t then mean that God is not working out a form of salvation and human progress through their human condition. You keep coming back to working in ‘autism’ to much of what you’re attempting to say. I’m not sure that you’re getting my point or if you are willfully disregarding it.

My point is the spiritual autism is the inability of any one individual to have a full connection with spiritual practice of a community. That can be LDS. That can be Catholic. That can be Scientology. That can be any system that has a spiritual practice in which there are common and accepted ways of ‘feeling’ and expressing that spiritual practice/experience through its rituals and practices and testimonies. Some people feel as though they are not on the same exact wavelength and in order to maintain that spiritual practice they may look for other modalities that will bring them to an understanding as to what is ‘true’ for them. That may lead them to stay in the community or to leave the community.

I think that God has a ‘play’ for all of that. We can’t surprise Him in anything we do. And we can’t outsmart Him.

How do you determine when a person doing something you judge as spiritual wrong even after you say you can't judge, how do you determine whether they lack the sixth sense, are corrupt by ritual, or listening to a false spirit? You seem to be able to call every case.

That’s the point. I can’t. Only God can. And I believe He is all merciful and understanding and has a path towards salvation for all of His children.

I do believe that somewhere along the way every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. But until then it’s kind of a free for all with a whole lot of options. Unfortunately, in my opinion, one of the early apostles had it right when he said that there would be those that are, “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

And to where and whom much is given, much is expected.

In the middle of all of that we are free agents and God blesses us according to His mind and will.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

My point is the spiritual autism is the inability of any one individual to have a full connection with spiritual practice of a community.

Okay, you've clarified that point now rather than making it worse. You're arguing for a kind of cultural relativism I guess, where different communities experience the divine differently. That must be the implication if a person feels nothing within Mormonism, but then joins another religion and feels vibrant and thrives to represent the norms of that religion.

Every religion would naturally believe that they are the "true religion" and you have no vantage point outside of your own community experience by which to judge one religion as "true religion" and others as degenerate. There is no way for you to say that Mayan sacrificial culture is any less spiritual than your culture of taking bread and water on Sunday. Your vista is limited to the way your community understands truth and experiences the spirit, and so its no wonder that you think your community is the standard for all true religion.

My point about ritual in Catholicism leading to eventual nihilism wasn't due to me believing such a thing as an atheist, but due to the Book of Mormon condemning the Catholic church as the church of the devil, and its persistent refrain against "foolish traditions". It seemed very clear to me that you were linking "deranged" practices like human sacrifice to the "empty rituals" of Catholicism, or whatever faiths were part of the great apostasy.

[Marcus]

My point is the spiritual autism is the inability of any one individual to have a full connection with spiritual practice of a community.

Okay, you've clarified that point now rather than making it worse. You're arguing for a kind of cultural relativism I guess, where different communities experience the divine differently. That must be the implication if a person feels nothing within Mormonism, but then joins another religion and feels vibrant and thrives to represent the norms of that religion.

Every religion would naturally believe that they are the "true religion" and you have no vantage point outside of your own community experience by which to judge one religion as "true religion" and others as degenerate. There is no way for you to say that Mayan sacrificial culture is any less spiritual than your culture of taking bread and water on Sunday. Your vista is limited to the way your community understands truth and experiences the spirit, and so its no wonder that you think your community is the standard for all true religion...

Which is why his use of the phrase "spiritual autism" remains extremely problematic. He is equating those who leave the LDS church or who don't feel the LDS "spirit" with having a disability or a disorder. Not to mention it is still exceedingly insensitive to equate a real disability and syndrome with his imaginary syndrome based on his assumptions about something he can't prove exists, i.e. his type of spirituality.

[MG 2.0]

Okay, you've clarified that point now rather than making it worse. You're arguing for a kind of cultural relativism I guess, where different communities experience the divine differently. That must be the implication if a person feels nothing within Mormonism, but then joins another religion and feels vibrant and thrives to represent the norms of that religion.

Every religion would naturally believe that they are the "true religion" and you have no vantage point outside of your own community experience by which to judge one religion as "true religion" and others as degenerate. There is no way for you to say that Mayan sacrificial culture is any less spiritual than your culture of taking bread and water on Sunday. Your vista is limited to the way your community understands truth and experiences the spirit, and so its no wonder that you think your community is the standard for all true religion...

Which is why his use of the phrase "spiritual autism" remains extremely problematic. He is equating those who leave the LDS church or who don't feel the LDS "spirit" with having a disability or a disorder. Not to mention it is still exceedingly insensitive to equate a real disability and syndrome with his imaginary syndrome based on his assumptions about something he can't prove exists, i.e. his type of spirituality.

You are looking at autism a bit differently than I am. As I think about spiritual autism I am not thinking of it as a disability or disorder. I’m thinking more of ‘it is what it is’…different than what might be considered the norm or accepted in a community. I see the autism of my grandson as being ‘it is what it is’…different than the norm. In the case of my grandson there are therapeutic interventions that can help him ‘self talk’ and initiate strategies that help him…and us (others) more fully integrate in communication and community (family,etc.)

The same holds true in a spiritual community. A person who doesn’t fit the ‘spiritual mold’ can find ways to work/function through other modalities that then offer the same or similar results of ‘testimony’ and common community if not complete commonality in communication.

We will simply have to disagree on the proposition you are entertaining and attempting to reinforce that I am being insensitive. As it is, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I’m not aware of any time I’ve attempted to prove that my type of spirituality is the one that takes precedence over another. Each person’s spirituality or lack thereof is unique to them and their physical/mental/environmental/spiritual makeup. You’re making a judgment call based on stereotyping and false generalizations.

I can share my beliefs, but that’s about as far as I can go. The same holds true with you. You can share your beliefs, and that’s about as far as you can go.

You can’t prove anything.

That’s one reason you amuse me somewhat. You seem to take a position that there is only one way to see things…and it’s your way. That’s why I’ve referred to you as ‘board nanny’ off and on.

Regards,
MG