Loan shifting the anachronisms away

[MG 2.0]

Amen.

And let all the congregation (Discuss Mormonism) say, "Amen."

Benjamin McGuire (dodo) is burnt toast. What a joke! Not worth my time...

Shulem, I get where you’re coming from and the humor but let’s dial it back a bit . I’m really liking the discussion and he’s not at all a troll like some of the other believing members here.

Something to keep in mind. Ben McGuire is a recent entry into this forum. He hasn't been here long enough in order to be considered to be 'the enemy'. In fact, much of what he has said here essentially makes him a 'friend of the court', so to speak. He's innocuous.

On the other hand, I've been in and out of this board for years. I've built a reputation of not being one that will lay down and accept the status quo or accept the prevailing narrative. Ben beats around the bush. At the end of the day it is very difficult to pin the label of either believer OR disbeliever on him. He is more or less lukewarm in proclaiming any sort of faith/belief/testimony in the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the truth claims of the LDS Church.

I may very well be misappropriating/misinterpreting what he is actually saying. Maybe is saying...directly...that there were gold plates, that there was an actual angel Moroni, that there were Lehites that left Jerusalem and came to the New World. But I'm not seeing it or hearing it.

He can be accepted as one of 'the bunch'. He's not a danger to the prevailing narrative. Kishkumen's recent interaction and approval demonstrates that.

drumdude, I don't know if you're directly referring to me when you say that Ben is "not at all a troll like some of the other believing members here", but if you are, I think you might want to reconsider. The reason being, I think that there has been a prevailing narrative that has been 'built up' over time through false accusations and innuendo so that the prevailing narrative 'takes root'.

I think that is unfortunate, but it doesn't really surprise me for reasons that I will leave unsaid so as to not step on any toes.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Shulem, I get where you’re coming from and the humor but let’s dial it back a bit . I’m really liking the discussion and he’s not at all a troll like some of the other believing members here.

Something to keep in mind. Ben McGuire is a recent entry into this forum. He hasn't been here long enough in order to be considered to be 'the enemy'. In fact, much of what he has said here essentially makes him a 'friend of the court', so to speak. He's innocuous.

On the other hand, I've been in and out of this board for years. I've built a reputation of not being one that will lay down and accept the status quo or accept the prevailing narrative. Ben beats around the bush. At the end of the day it is very difficult to pin the label of either believer OR disbeliever on him. He is more or less lukewarm in proclaiming any sort of faith/belief/testimony in the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the truth claims of the LDS Church.

I may very well be misappropriating/misinterpreting what he is actually saying. Maybe is saying...directly...that there were gold plates, that there was an actual angel Moroni, that there were Lehites that left Jerusalem and came to the New World. But I'm not seeing it or hearing it.

He can be accepted as one of 'the bunch'. He's not a danger to the prevailing narrative. Kishkumen's recent interaction and approval demonstrates that.

drumdude, I don't know if you're directly referring to me when you say that Ben is "not at all a troll like some of the other believing members here", but if you are, I think you might want to reconsider. The reason being, I think that there has been a prevailing narrative that has been 'built up' over time through false accusations and innuendo so that the prevailing narrative 'takes root'.

I think that is unfortunate, but it doesn't really surprise me for reasons that I will leave unsaid so as to not step on any toes.

Regards,
MG

I don’t think you’re a troll, but I know that Shulem and Marcus often consider you one. I disagree with them on that issue, but I understand both you and their positions. I was more thinking of AM and Binger.

I couldn’t find a right way to express the thoughts that you put here eloquently, that this guy is being treated by some as an “enemy” (so to speak) before he even has much of a chance to interact with the board. I’d like the board to be a little more welcoming, is all I’m trying to say.

[huckelberry]

It was simply a piece of fiction, written in the 19th century. It was just another in a long list of cons in which he engaged. Not scripture, not divine, just another con.

Amen.

And let all the congregation (Discuss Mormonism) say, "Amen."

Benjamin McGuire (dodo) is burnt toast. What a joke! Not worth my time...

Not worth your time? So you waste my time with this empty bad taste post.

[Shulem]

Not worth your time? So you waste my time with this empty bad taste post.

Look, it's not worth my time taking Ben on in *this* thread. I only wanted to state my position in opposing him and did so only because of Shade's comments that resonated with me. I have nothing further to say.

If I offended Ben -- I don't give a damn! Screw him; I'm sure he could care less. It's my right and privilege to comment because I'm a member of this board -- a long term member from the very beginning.

PS. Your time was not wasted. So get over it! (I know you will)

[Philo Sofee]

Not worth your time? So you waste my time with this empty bad taste post.

Look, it's not worth my time taking Ben on in *this* thread. I only wanted to state my position in opposing him and did so only because of Shade's comments that resonated with me. I have nothing further to say.

If I offended Ben -- I don't give a damn! Screw him; I'm sure he could care less. It's my right and privilege to comment because I'm a member of this board -- a long term member from the very beginning.

PS. Your time was not wasted. So get over it! (I know you will)

OK, you've said your piece, thank you. Now bow out and let the rest of us enjoy the conversation and learning with Ben.

[Marcus]

...ETA: Tolkien's religious purpose was to buttress Catholic faith through his novel, not to provide a new scripture.

https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articl ... istianity.

Wow, interesting link, thank you.

of course his epic work is religious and Catholic. It seems natural and obvious to Tolkien that it should be so. The Lord of the Rings, he says, is not superficially religious and Catholic but fundamentally so—at its roots, in its essence. This religious and Catholic element, however, “is absorbed into the story and symbolism,” woven into the warp and woof of the text, implicit, indirect. It was not “consciously planned”; that is to say, The Lord of the Rings is not an allegory of the Gospels or a tale didactically expressing Christianity. Rather, the whole world of Middle-earth and everything in it is infused with, rooted in, its author’s Christian vision of reality.

[Shulem]

OK, you've said your piece, thank you. Now bow out and let the rest of us enjoy the conversation and learning with Ben.

I already bowed out!

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

See?

[MG 2.0]

Something to keep in mind. Ben McGuire is a recent entry into this forum. He hasn't been here long enough in order to be considered to be 'the enemy'. In fact, much of what he has said here essentially makes him a 'friend of the court', so to speak. He's innocuous.

On the other hand, I've been in and out of this board for years. I've built a reputation of not being one that will lay down and accept the status quo or accept the prevailing narrative. Ben beats around the bush. At the end of the day it is very difficult to pin the label of either believer OR disbeliever on him. He is more or less lukewarm in proclaiming any sort of faith/belief/testimony in the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the truth claims of the LDS Church.

I may very well be misappropriating/misinterpreting what he is actually saying. Maybe is saying...directly...that there were gold plates, that there was an actual angel Moroni, that there were Lehites that left Jerusalem and came to the New World. But I'm not seeing it or hearing it.

He can be accepted as one of 'the bunch'. He's not a danger to the prevailing narrative. Kishkumen's recent interaction and approval demonstrates that.

drumdude, I don't know if you're directly referring to me when you say that Ben is "not at all a troll like some of the other believing members here", but if you are, I think you might want to reconsider. The reason being, I think that there has been a prevailing narrative that has been 'built up' over time through false accusations and innuendo so that the prevailing narrative 'takes root'.

I think that is unfortunate, but it doesn't really surprise me for reasons that I will leave unsaid so as to not step on any toes.

Regards,
MG

I don’t think you’re a troll, but I know that Shulem and Marcus often consider you one. I disagree with them on that issue, but I understand both you and their positions. I was more thinking of AM and Binger.

I couldn’t find a right way to express the thoughts that you put here eloquently, that this guy is being treated by some as an “enemy” (so to speak) before he even has much of a chance to interact with the board. I’d like the board to be a little more welcoming, is all I’m trying to say.

Thank you for that clarification. Yes, it doesn't take long for a newcomer to be treated as an outlier if they don't strictly conform to the prevailing narrative. In this case, however, I think that there is enough 'waffling' on the part of the poster in question that I think he might be able to hang around a bit longer before he leaves.

I have found his posts interesting. I asked him about Grant Hardy earlier simply because they both attempt to look at the Book of Mormon as a piece of literature which can be analyzed using empirical/academic methods. In the case of Hardy, however, he has made it clear that he is a believer in the restoration and in the Book of Mormon being what it purports to be. I asked McGuire to comment on the Title Page in the Book of Mormon and whether or not he accepted it at face value but didn't get much of a response, if any.

I'm cool with him if he is nuanced to the point that he doesn't accept...literally...the truth claims in regards to the foundation events of the restoration, but I think he could be a bit more up front about it without waffling.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...I’m really liking the discussion...

Agreed. Let's get back to it!!

[Gadianton]

On the other hand, I've been in and out of this board for years. I've built a reputation of not being one that will lay down and accept the status quo or accept the prevailing narrative. Ben beats around the bush. At the end of the day it is very difficult to pin the label of either believer OR disbeliever on him. He is more or less lukewarm in proclaiming any sort of faith/belief/testimony in the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the truth claims of the LDS Church.

I don't think you can surmise Ben's beliefs from his interactions here. there's a difference between a "lukewarm" proclamation and a lukewarm belief. Just because a person bellows and shouts and makes a fool of themselves doesn't mean they believe something more deeply than someone who is reserved. It could be a strategy to simply leave a good impression. Believers like you are a dime a dozen. We've all known dozens of your type.

It's also possible Ben is just getting feedback on his ideas and isn't trying to be a missionary. I'd say either way, the amount of good Ben is doing for the Church is clearly not LESS than the amount you're doing for the Church. In terms of this board, that is.

Maybe is saying...directly...that there were gold plates, that there was an actual angel Moroni, that there were Lehites that left Jerusalem and came to the New World. But I'm not seeing it or hearing it.

Yet you're also very excited about Grant Hardy's book and while Grant has said he believes the Book of Mormon is historical, he's open to those who believe it is fiction as true believers.

by the way, you're basically admitting to be a 2 again. Mythic-literal.