SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

[huckelberry]

To your question I might point out that theists of all sorts believe God acts through natural laws though they generally believe God is the source of those laws and determined what form and potential they have.

When you say "theists," are you going beyond Christianity? Or are there Christians who claim that Christ's resurrection was accomplished through natural law as opposed to a miracle? Asking because I have no idea.

I did not intend to propose that Gods power or choices are limited to the natural laws generated by the big bang. I am unsure how your question differentiates between natural law and miracle. Is a miracle a positive event outside of the usual course of events? Well sometimes people mean that, sometimes they refer to the birth of a child as a miracle.

I am inclined to think it is possible for God to apply force to move something or alter an arrangement. I think that is a pretty usual view for Theist of a wide variety. I have heard a few people claim God cannot do such a thing and miracles cannot happen. I have not heard a very complete explanation for that view.(well except perhaps for the view that God only existence is in the mind and spirit amongst people and thus has no direct power to touch physical things)

[Morley]

I agree. A magical god could probably even stop the sun in the sky; cause bees, animals and Jaredites to sail in wooden submarines for 344 days and come out alive; and I'll bet he could create three days of darkness when not even a candle could be lit. A magical god could, as you say, do anything.

I wonder though. Could he flood the whole earth with water so that even the mountains were covered--so that it would kill his children who were hundreds or years old?

Each of these things are out of the ordinary ONLY in a certain time and place.

This nonsense.

The earth being totally covered in water would be out-of-the-ordinary in any time or place. So would Jaredite barges full of bees. So would stopping the sun (or the pausing the Earth’s rotation). Or any of the others.

You’re saying that if any of these things occurred today, we’d say, “Meh, that happens all the time. I can explain that with science.” Perhaps you’ll start a new thread to do it? You could start with the global flood that Church doctrine says covered the whole world for a year.

Ancient people would perceive and explain things according to their own understanding. Notice that all your examples are from texts that make claims to come from the ancient world.

These are texts that generations of modern prophets have referenced as actual happenings. Are you discounting them or are you brushing aside the prophets? However, if you'd rather, we can talk about modern miracles, since the ancient ones seem to embarrass you.

If we were to hop in a time machine and travel back in time it’s possible that we would see things happening according to natural laws as we now understand them.

Really? Which of the mentioned items would those be? What natural law would explain a flesh-and-bone God's teleportation from a planet near Kolob to an appearance before a young Joseph?

by the way, is the word ‘submarine’ found in the Book of Mormon?

Not sure what this has to do with your argument. But I'll call them anything you wish.

[Morley]

Where's the doctrine that God works with evolution? I missed that part.

You do come at these issues with a very fundamentalist way of looking at the world of Mormonism, don’t you?

I think that’s why folks such as yourself struggle so mightily with the possibility of a God that is all powerful within the framework of natural/eternal laws.

You’re right. It is fundamentalist to look at what the scriptures, apostles, and prophets say about the doctrine of the God. I should brush them aside and take the word of some guy living in a retirement community in Utah County who posts on the internet. No wonder I struggle.

[mentalgymnast]

Each of these things are out of the ordinary ONLY in a certain time and place.

This nonsense.

The earth being totally covered in water would be out-of-the-ordinary in any time or place. So would Jaredite barges full of bees. So would stopping the sun (or the pausing the Earth’s rotation). Or any of the others.

You’re saying that if any of these things occurred today, we’d say, “Meh, that happens all the time. I can explain that with science.” Perhaps you’ll start a new thread to do it? You could start with the global flood that Church doctrine says covered the whole world for a year.

You don’t get it.

We weren’t there at the time of the flood. We don’t know for a fact what did or didn’t happen. We only have the record of an ancient people. Same with your other examples.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

But could a magical sky god set up a garden where nothing ever died? Or would that have to be done through natural laws of evolution and the like?

If that garden existed within a sphere operating under different conditions than the temporal world, then yes.

You're right. Why didn't I think of that? Totally natural law and not at all magical. Thank you for explaining.

[Morley]

We weren’t there at the time of the flood. We don’t know for a fact what did or didn’t happen. We only have the record of an ancient people. Same with your other examples.

That's not what your prophets say.

[mentalgymnast]

You do come at these issues with a very fundamentalist way of looking at the world of Mormonism, don’t you?

I think that’s why folks such as yourself struggle so mightily with the possibility of a God that is all powerful within the framework of natural/eternal laws.

You’re right. It is fundamentalist to look at what the scriptures, apostles, and prophets say about the doctrine of the God. I should brush them aside and take the word of some guy living in a retirement community in Utah County who posts on the internet. No wonder I struggle.

Do not take my word as gospel truth (I know you don’t ), but I might suggest that you go back and read some B.H. Roberts, John Widstoe, Duane Jeffrery, Trent Stephens, and a myriad of others. There are a number of views and approaches to God’s nature and evolutionary characteristics of man and the universe within the purview of active LDS thought.

Hey, don’t diss retirement communities. They’re great! You’re posting on the internet also, if you hadn’t noticed.

Regards,
MG

[mentalgymnast]

If that garden existed within a sphere operating under different conditions than the temporal world, then yes.

You're right. Why didn't I think of that? Totally natural law and not at all magical. Thank you for explaining.

Well, I will admit, it’s something that is difficult to wrap our minds around from where we sit. In that sense, magical. But if we could see through the eyes and mind of God we might think otherwise.

You seem to be rather limited in your views of what is possible.

Regards,
MG

[mentalgymnast]

We weren’t there at the time of the flood. We don’t know for a fact what did or didn’t happen. We only have the record of an ancient people. Same with your other examples.

That's not what your prophets say.

Morley, methinks that you’re looking for any reason to not think for yourself.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

Do not take my word as gospel truth (I know you don’t ), but I might suggest that you go back and read some B.H. Roberts, John Widstoe, Duane Jeffrery, Trent Stephens, and a myriad of others. There are a number of views and approaches to God’s nature and evolutionary characteristics of man and the universe within the purview of active LDS thought.

Which of those are speaking as prophets? Maybe you can quote what they say is the church stance instead of making some oblique reference.

Hey, don’t diss retirement communities. They’re great! You’re posting on the internet also, if you hadn’t noticed.

The difference is, I'm not calling you a fundamentalist if you don't consider my words to be as important as script or prophets.