Former Stake President managing MormonThink

[_hobo1512]

Funny, I wasn't the one that brought up the point that the Bible is more legitmate than the Book of Mormon because it took place in locations we can identify. Seems the Book of Mormon shares the same heritage in that it took place in some locations we can ALSO identify. It must therefore be legitimate ACCORDING to you.

Let's watch and see if the Star Trek Tobin god has told Tobin where Zarahemla was.

Mormon hill isn't the hill Cumorah and don't quote GA's to me since I really could care less. Neither Joseph Smith nor the Angel Moroni referred to Mormon hill as such.

Biographical sketches of Joseph Smith the prophet, and his progenitors for many generations, by Lucy Mack Smith, page 99

(reporting a conversation she witnessed between Joe, Sr. and Joe, Jr.)

"Stop, father, stop," said Joseph, "it was the angel of the Lord: as I passed by the hill of Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord; that the time had come for the record to be brought forth and that I must be up and doing and set myself about the things which God had commanded me to do."

Since Tobin has me on ignore, maybe someone would like to point out to him that Joseph Smith did in fact refer to the hill as Cumorah. Additionally, please inform him that this is not hearsay. It would be hearsay if you were trying to prove that the hill was in reality Cumorah. It is not hearsay when the issue is whether another person heard Joseph Smith call the hill "Cumorah."

Yo!!! Tobin!!!!!

Darth as some pretty interesting information here for you.

Wouldn't want you to miss out little buddy.

[Guest]

Throughout their lives, the witnesses bore their testimonies. Here is martin harris on his deathbed:

[i]One morning in July I thought I would go to see Brother Harris. He lived about three blocks from my home and I had heard that he was not well. People were coming from far and near to see him and hear his testimony.

When I arrived I found two other men present -- Brother James Joseph Keep and Brother John Godfrey. Brother Harris lay in bed resting on his elbow. “How are you Brother Harris?” I asked. “Oh, pretty well” he replied.

“We came to hear your testimony of the Book of Mormon,” I said. He raised up and said, “Yes, I wish I could make the whole world hear my Testimony.” He stretched out his arm and said, “Brothers I believe there is an angel here to hear what I am going to say to you and you will never forget what I say.”

“The Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and myself went into a small grove to pray to obtain a promise that we should behold with our own eyes that we could testify to the whole world. At length the angel stood before Oliver and David with the plates in his hand. I had gone a little apart to pray, and in my desperation I asked the prophet to kneel and pray with me. He did so and immediately the angel stood before me and said, “LOOK.” When I glanced at him I fell to the ground but immediately got up and saw the angel turn the leaves of the golden plates over and I said, “IT IS ENOUGH MY LORD AND MY GOD.” I then heard the voice of God say, “THE Book of Mormon IS TRUE AND TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.”

Lets put this on the MT site....oppps I forgot...it is too faith promoting.

Again, why me, have you even read Mormon Think, or are you just a damned liar?

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm#harris

In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that neither he nor the other Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates—although he had not been present when Whitmer and Cowdery first claimed to have viewed them—and they claimed that Harris's recantation, made during a period of crisis in early Mormonism, induced five influential members, including three Apostles, to leave the Church. Even at the end of his long life, Harris said that he had seen the plates in "a state of entrancement." Nevertheless, in 1853, Harris told one David Dille that he had held the forty- to sixty-pound plates on his knee for "an hour-and-a-half" and handled the plates with his hands, "plate after plate." Even later, Harris affirmed that he had seen the plates and the angel with his natural eyes: "Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates." The following year Harris affirmed that "No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates."

ETA: notice how the story keeps changing---one time the angel shows him the plates and turns them and Martin says it's enough, and another time Martin actually held the plates for a long time and turned them himself.

[_why me]

"However, there is no King Follett sermon written in Joseph Smith's hand to my knowledge and what was said by Joseph Smith during the sermon were taken from four diarists who wrote down what they believed was said."

BUSTED!!!!!

It works both ways Hobo. I have said it often that we don't have much about what Joseph said outside of notes. But critics often use such notes to make a point against Joseph. But here is what is known. For a conspiracy to have worked we would need at least 13 people in on it and yet, no one giving it up regardless of what was happening around them...the people who were suffering persecution by mobs etc. And yet, these men kept to their story even on their deathbeds. What luck Joseph had in finding such men. It was a one in a million chance.

[_hobo1512]

"However, there is no King Follett sermon written in Joseph Smith's hand to my knowledge and what was said by Joseph Smith during the sermon were taken from four diarists who wrote down what they believed was said."

BUSTED!!!!!

It works both ways Hobo. I have said it often that we don't have much about what Joseph said outside of notes. But critics often use such notes to make a point against Joseph. But here is what is known. For a conspiracy to have worked we would need at least 13 people in on it and yet, no one giving it up regardless of what was happening around them...the people who were suffering persecution by mobs etc. And yet, these men kept to their story even on their deathbeds. What luck Joseph had in finding such men. It was a one in a million chance.

Are you that big of a moron? Wait, what am I asking?

If your little tactic of we don't know, they could have written it down wrong works for covering ol joes rear end, then it works with the so called testimonies.

How do you know they were transcribed correctly. YOU DON'T

So, if you're going to use it to get ol joe off the hook, then we can use it to hang them on it.

Really.....put on some big boy pants would you please.

[_Darth J]

But here is what is known. For a conspiracy to have worked we would need at least 13 people in on it and yet, no one giving it up regardless of what was happening around them...the people who were suffering persecution by mobs etc. And yet, these men kept to their story even on their deathbeds. What luck Joseph had in finding such men. It was a one in a million chance.

I would like to know about the evidence that corroborates their testimony, why me. Of the many Nephite artifacts that have been found in the last 182 years, which are some of your favorites?

[_why me]

Again, why me, have you even read Mormon Think, or are you just a f*****g liar?

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm#harris

[color=#0000FF]In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that neither he nor the other Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates—although he had not been present when Whitmer and Cowdery first claimed to have viewed them—and they claimed that Harris's recantation, made during a period of crisis in early Mormonism, induced five influential members, including three Apostles, to leave the Church. Even at the end of his long life, Harris said that he had seen the plates in "a state of entrancement."

Yep, that MT website is certainly faith promoting...yep it sure is....many faithful members writing on that site....no problem.


Even later, Harris affirmed that he had seen the plates and the angel with his natural eyes: "Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates."[36] The following year Harris affirmed that "No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates."[37][38]

And we have this:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... pts/?id=21

None of course would be on MT because they don't fit their agenda.

[_Darth J]

Again, why me, have you even read Mormon Think, or are you just a f*****g liar?

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm#harris

[color=#0000FF]In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that neither he nor the other Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates—although he had not been present when Whitmer and Cowdery first claimed to have viewed them—and they claimed that Harris's recantation, made during a period of crisis in early Mormonism, induced five influential members, including three Apostles, to leave the Church. Even at the end of his long life, Harris said that he had seen the plates in "a state of entrancement."

Yep, that MT website is certainly faith promoting...yep it sure is....many faithful members writing on that site....no problem.

So, are you ready to point out some factual or logical errors on Mormon Think, why me? Are you ready to present your evidence that the above statement is false, and that Martin Harris did not really give inconsistent statements about what happened? The statement you quoted contradicts other statements he made about what happened when the angel showed him the plates.

Do you have anything other than whining and crying about how objective reality is not faith-promoting?

b]
Even later, Harris affirmed that he had seen the plates and the angel with his natural eyes: "Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates."[36] The following year Harris affirmed that "No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates."[37][38][/b]

And? Are you claiming Martin Harris didn't say this?

And we have this:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... pts/?id=21

None of course would be on MT because they don't fit their agenda.

It wouldn't be on Mormon Think because it's a piece of crap.

"I first encountered the concept of witnesses in law school as I learned that in property transactions and other legal documents, you need two or three witnesses to attest to the signature."

Good. You tell me what law school it was that taught you that. Meanwhile, here is Federal Rule of Evidence 901(b)(2), which provides that a single layperson may testify to authenticate a person's handwriting if the witness is familiar with that person's handwriting: http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_901

"Some say that because the Eight Witnesses were closely related to Joseph and to each other, their testimony is invalid. That is simply not so. Consider the example of Christ's resurrection: Of the eleven witnesses who saw Christ's resurrected body, several were brothers, and some of those witnesses were even related to Christ."

I am struggling to think of a worse analogy to have chosen.

As to the rest of your precious NAMIRS article, why me, I have read it and there is nothing that shows any factual statements on Mormon Think to be mistaken. If you think otherwise, copy and paste it.

[_Tobin]

Yo!!! Tobin!!!!!

Darth as some pretty interesting information here for you.

Wouldn't want you to miss out little buddy.

Not really. I've got Darth on ignore because he can't help but just resort to personal attacks and misrepresentations. It is hearsay because it doesn't support Joseph Smith or the Angel Moroni making statements to the effect that it was the hill Cumorah. It's just another ridiculous assertion by Darth J and not worth my time.

[_hobo1512]

Yo!!! Tobin!!!!!

Darth as some pretty interesting information here for you.

Wouldn't want you to miss out little buddy.

Not really. I've got Darth on ignore because he can't help but just resort to personal attacks and misrepresentations. It is hearsay because it doesn't support Joseph Smith or the Angel Moroni making statements to the effect that it was the hill Cumorah. It's just another ridiculous assertion by Darth J and not worth my time.

Now there is the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

Your first post to me was full of name calling, and it didn't subside for several posts.

I hate to tell you, Darth, pinned you on that one. To say it is "hearsay" because it doesn't support smith or moroni, is a non existent argument in support of your position.

[_Tobin]

Your first post to me was full of name calling, and it didn't subside for several posts.

I hate to tell you, Darth, pinned you on that one. To say it is "hearsay" because it doesn't support smith or moroni, is a non existent argument in support of your position.

Really? I'd like you to provide a single quote where I made a personal attack at all. I've only stated your VIEWS are stupid and WHY I think so. That is completely fair game. You clearly don't understand the difference.

And as I've already said, it is hearsay. It isn't supported by Joseph Smith or Moroni making these statements to others. Joseph Smith had much to say on the matter and could have clearly and often stated this and does not. DarthJ knows it is hearsay and unsupportable. It is just more misrepresentations by him as usual.