DCP, living in the past.

[Moksha]

And remember: DCP has always said that he “saw” the document that Hamblin was referring to.

Oh yeah? Well, what if Dr. Peterson saw the letter with his spiritual eyes?!!! I'm pretty sure apologetics can make you cross-eyed and lie for the Lord.

[Markk]

You deserve credit for hanging in there despite DCP’s repeated, bullying demands that you shut up about the topic.

Look: the issue is simple. He, Hamblin, and the other Mopologists maintained for years that they had a “2nd Watson Letter.” They did not. They never did. And critics were 100% correct to question the veracity of their assertions. Hamblin’s assertion in his footnote was, at best, a colossally incorrect error, and, at worst, a brazen and spectacular lie. And remember: DCP has always said that he “saw” the document that Hamblin was referring to.

LoL, he is no bully, he is just a classic blow hard wrapped up in himself. I grew up in the streets of San Bernardino, a bully is someone who breaks your arm and stabs you with a bic pen (true story).

Like I wrote when you suggested I bring up the 2nd letter, it is a slam dunk. He was very confident in what 09, and boasted it existed? He stated clearly there were at least one original copy (where is the original?), and that several folks saw it including himself as a "letter." Now, as you pointed out, and he admits, he may have been mistaken and that it could be...in his words, "Maybe a computer print-out." Lol are you kidding me...Lol, what a tool.

He remembers all the details of our lame exchanges on a message forum years ago, but has a now foggy memory of a letter that he picked up with his two little fingers, and which he saw with his two little eyes, that was a supposed game change of where the Book of Mormon folks lived, despite what the past and current leaders, including Joseph Smith clearly believed. Give me a break.

My guess in that Hamblin did not think that folks would read and test what he wrote, just like the Metcalf is Butthead fiasco.


# Rams score! 10 zip halftime.

[drumdude]

My guess in that Hamblin did not think that folks would read and test what he wrote, just like the Metcalf is Butthead fiasco.

Ditto.

[Markk]

drumdude wrote...DCP doesn’t even trust the eyewitness testimony of DCP.

So true...which is the lie.

[Markk]

yeah baby....Rams win..!!!!

Maybe???

Whhhoo, they do!

[Kishkumen]

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but am I correct in interpreting the story about the Second Watson letter to be that the First Watson Letter was actually the Second Watson letter, and that what we had assumed was the Second Watson Letter was a piece of "correspondence" that Dr. Hamblin had received in 1985 or thereabouts?

I am having a difficult time understanding the chronology on all of this.

Does this make the Ogden Fax something completely different that was never represented as a Watson communication by Drs. Hamblin and Peterson?

[sock puppet]

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but am I correct in interpreting the story about the Second Watson letter to be that the First Watson Letter was actually the Second Watson letter, and that what we had assumed was the Second Watson Letter was a piece of "correspondence" that Dr. Hamblin had received in 1985 or thereabouts?

I am having a difficult time understanding the chronology on all of this.

Does this make the Ogden Fax something completely different that was never represented as a Watson communication by Drs. Hamblin and Peterson?

If per Hamblin there was a 1985 Watson letter on the topic then the 1990 one corrected it and stands as the extant FP pronouncement on location of Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah, i.e. in New York state.

Keep in mind, the Ogden Fax was dated 4.26.1993, the very date Hamblin referenced for a Watson correspondence, in Hamblin's published piece.

As I recall, just before Hamblin came clean in December 2009 that the Ogden Fax was the supposed "Second Watson Letter", Hamblin was grasping and made the claim about a 1985 Watson letter on the topic, when Hamblin was in grad school. But once he 'fessed up about the Ogden Fax, there was no further claim to any 1985 or thereabouts letter.

[drumdude]

This is a very convoluted tale, but here is my understanding of the timeline:

The First Watson Letter

Sometime in 1990 - A Mormon member, Brother Sparks, writes a letter to 1st Presidency member Gordon B Hinckley about the Hill Cumorah. Hinckley asks his secretary to send the 1st Watson letter.

October 16, 1990 - F Michael Watson sends a letter to Bishop Brooks saying that "The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon." Signed F Michael Watson.



1990-1993 - "Anti-Mormons" use this letter to attack the church. Bill Hamblin feels it necessary to clarify this in order to shore up a potential weakpoint for LDS apologists, and advance his pet Mezoamerica theory that there are Two Hills Cumorah.

The Second Watson Letter

1993 - Bill Hamblin quotes from what he claims is a Second Watson Letter in his possession.



He cites from a letter in his possession that has now conveniently gone missing.



Matt Roper testifies that he has seen the letter, but characterizes it as a FAX from Michael Watson



2009 - Greg Smith announces the letter has been found, located at FARMS by Matt Roper in John Sorrenson's office. He publishes this:

The Carla Ogden Fax



Back around 1993, Brent Hall characterizes the fax as being from Michael Watson:



2009 - DCP starts to worry, and emails Bill Hamblin for clarification.



2022 - Michael Watson testifies that he never sent a clarification


2024 - DCP now claims maybe there wasn't a letter, and the Carla Ogden fax is the 2nd Watson letter. FairMormon also believes the fax is sufficient to address the matter.

[I Have Questions]

So Bill quotes accurately the specific date of the fax, the specific content of the fax (deleting without attribution the final four words “that has been suggested” for some reason), but (and this must be deliberate on Bill’s part as he was accurate in everything else) says the fax was sent by Watson when he knew it was from Carla Ogden. Why would he do that? Why did nobody correct Bill’s “error”?

[I Have Questions]

I note that FAIR is still perpetrating the untruth that Bill Hamblin started.

On April 23, 1993, F. Michael Watson provided a letter after a discussion with a FARMS staffer. The text is similar and consistent with what was published in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism the previous year

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... battles%3F

This shows that FAIR is not a trustworthy source for accurate information about the Church. It shows they will put stuff out that hasn’t been verified properly. The paragraph above has been refuted by Watson himself in 2022 - two years later FAIR are still promoting a known falsehood.

From the footnotes:

Daniel Peterson wrote on a now-defunct message board: "…Professor Hamblin and the FARMS Review source checker and the FARMS publications director and the FARMS Review production editor and I all saw it during the preparation of the article for publication. Two or three very vocal critics of FARMS, however, pretend to suspect that we made the letter up, attributing views to the First Presidency that they do not, in fact, hold, and that we brazenly published our forgery for all to see. ... I myself don’t doubt that there was such a letter. I held it in my own two little hands, and read it with my own two little eyes. Those for whom this is an issue, however, are entirely free to investigate

”We all saw it…”

Just like 11 people all saw the plates - see my signature line below.