Suggestions Please

[_wenglund]

Well, it's sort of like hiring a known convicted embellezer for an accountant.

I am not sure how your analogy applies to me facilitating someone's self-help.

I don't know if you realize it, but grief is a part of finding out the LDS church is based in fraud. I don't know if I've ever known anyone who has left the LDS church that hasn't experienced some sort of grieving process. Anger is a stage of that grief. I'm sorry, Wade, but many people don't heal from having lived most of life in a cult by this fluffy thought talk concept of yours. Really, one of the best approaches is to first examine and put in perspective the coercive persuasion, exploitation of one's needs, etc. that has occured.

I do realize that is the perception of many who have left the Church, just as I realize that many Church members view those who leave the faith as deceived and deceivers, liars, false accusers, evil, and so forth. The faithful may be hurt and angered deeply by the unfaithful, and grieved as well.

Both parties see themselves as the victim and the other as the victimizer. Both parties see themselves as right, and the other party as wrong. Both parties deeply distrust each other, and are quick to accuse. They each, in their own way, seek to "put into perspective" the faults of the other party. And so on and so forth...

The net result is, no small measure of hostility. Families are torn apart. Friends and neighbors turn ugly towards each other. Strangers on the internet are constantly at each others throats. And the cycle of hurt and anger and grief continues to whip itself into a firestorm. It is the Hatfields and the McCoys, the Arabs and Isrealies, and every other prolonged and counterproductive divide.

Unlike you, I don't see that as "the best approach".

Call it "fluffy thought talk", or whatever, however I much prefer to see people heal and draw closer to each other and uplift and fulfill basic human needs. But, that could just be because I am an idiot. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Gazelam]

On the contary, my wifes namecalling is usually due to my smugness and air of superiority. And theres no prefix, its just "Ass"

[_moksha]

So Wade, do you have a preliminary plan for creating this listening post? How about a mission statement?

[_Jersey Girl]

On the contary, my wifes namecalling is usually due to my smugness and air of superiority. And theres no prefix, its just "Ass"

You married well.

Jersey Girl
:0)

[_harmony]

Idiotic, yes.

Finally, we agree on something.

Non-ethical, yes. "Unethical?" There you go making up rules that don't exist.

You might want to take a class on ethics in counseling before you sound off, P. It will help you take the foot out of your mouth.

I have huge problems with your posts --

Oh goodie. I have succeeded. If we agreed too often, I'd have to start worrying.

--just making up rules of conduct which nowhere can be found. Where can I read these ethical rules? Do you read anything besides tripe on the internet? Can you use the jargon of an educated person?

Start with the APA. That is American Psychological Association, for you. Then move to the ACA. That's American Counseling Association. And I really recommend you take a class on rpofessional ethics. You seem to have missed that... or maybe lawyers don't need classes on professional ethics, since so few of them actually have them.

Non-credentialed people can counsel all they want; otherwise ministers would be "unethical," cops would be unethical, school counselors would be unethical. Confidentiality rules do not apply to them (except in the penitential confession to a priest or minister).

P

*sigh*... your ignorance is showing. School counselors are required by law (at least in my state) to be credentialed, as counselors. A teacher cannot be a school counselor unless they are credentialed as counselors. School counselors are covered by counselor's ethics, which means they have to maintain confidentiality, records must be kept certain ways, supervision must occur in a prescribed manner, among other things. Just because a person counsels does not mean he/she is a counselor. Cops are not counselors; ministers may be counselors, but it is not required. Counseling someone is not the same as being a counselor. Mothers counsel; librarians counsel; teachers counsel. That is not the same as being a counselor.

And if you were a counselor (instead of a lawyer), you'd know that.

[_Sam Harris]

Hi GIMR,

I enjoyed your insightful thoughts about "victims", and I would very much appreciate you pointing me to the resources you mentioned. I am in the process of compiling a resource page and I hope to have a way for participants to give their endorsements. Your suggestions will come in handy.

I mentioned previously that I was formulating a step-by-step guide for how one may proceed through the process. Below is a rough draft. Please let me know what you think.

How This Healing and Growth Process Works:
(Step-by-step instructions on how to proceed through this intervention)

1. Read through the Guiding Principles to see if they are agreeable to you.
2. Register to be a participant on this site using an anonymous screen name that will protect your identity, and also fill out the biographical questionnaire.
3. Once you have registered, please open a new thread and:
a) Put your screen name in the subject line.
b) Tell your story without disclosing the real identity and specific geographic location of any person or organization indicated therein. Include the most significant events, and describe, if you are able, the specific emotions you experienced during and subsequent to those events.
c) Indicate how you would like to be helped and/or what you wish to see accomplished here.
4. The staff and participants here will then interact with you on your personal thread, and using the Guiding Principles, help you to hone in on and find healthy and workable resolutions to your most critical issues.
5. You will be assisted in formulating reasonable expectations and in setting reachable goals and in also working out effective strategies for achieving those goals. Depending upon the nature and complexity of the issues you have, we anticipate that positive results may, to one degree or another, be realized almost immediately, and most goals achieved to a satisfactory level within months if not weeks.
6. As things progress, you will be asked from time to time to do some "homework". Once the homework is completed, please report the results on your personal thread.
7. If you have any apprehensions or concerns, or if you are unclear about things, or if you have some constructive criticisms or suggestions, please feel free to state them on your personal thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hey Wade, checking in.

I see from reading other posts that some are concerned that this board that you are creating would be geared towards either disaffected Mormons or people who have left the church. Is this your agenda? If so, I do believe that perhaps that might not work. But if you want to just deal with people on a larger scale, that might be a bit more feasible.

One danger point, however. DO NOT set time periods on people's healing. I say this, because some people heal faster and some slower than others, and for those who don't see the "results" in the time period set, that may have disasterous consequences. I think guarantees past personal peace of mind are too much. You see, we live in a world where the only control we have is over what WE do. That must be emphasized.

It'll take me some time, but if you like I can compile the list of stuff I have worked with.

[_Sam Harris]

Harmony:

I believe you when you say there are certain ethical considerations that Wade is/would/will be inadvertently violating by not knowing what they are.

However, for non-specialists such as myself, will you please give us a brief run-down of what, exactly, those are?

1. uncredentialed counselors are unethical

2. lack of confidentiality is unethical

3. no privilege and no privacy

4. no way to verify input from either direction

5. unethical record keeping

I would never lend my credentials to anything like this. The whole premise is unethical at its foundation.

I understand and agree with her concerns. Which is why I think a "support group" type of board, of which there are many should be the aim of the one Wade is trying to erect if his motives are pure. Some people are afraid to talk about what bothers them in the beginning, and the internet is a great place to start. I've been on quite a few boards, though I never stayed on any long, but the atmospheres were for the most part very warm and inviting. I hope that this is what Wade is aiming towards, because any control or manipulation of the indivduals who might frequent his board could prove harmful. He could get sued if someone finds out that a loved one of theirs tried something on his site, it didn't work, and that person grew more ill. That, or they felt like they were being "blamed" for where they are, and that caused them to grow more ill. That's why I'm against the harsh "you" focus.

I did therapy off and on for ten years. All it did was give me someone to talk to, and in a few cases for short spurts, someone to give me drugs. The real work was done by me, in reading, prayer, writing, and working out what happened in my life, where it went wrong, and what to do now. I feel much happier, though I do clinically stand a higher chance of relapse into depression. But I know what my options are now, and if I can share those with anyone, I'd be more than happy to. I don't think I was pointed to the resources I have just to keep them to myself.

Wade, I hope that this idea of yours really stems from something outside your inner self.

[_Sam Harris]

I don't know you, don't know you personally; I can only judge you from your posts. They are idiotic. They really are. I'm sorry. I'm surprised that the denizens on this board really engage you like they do; you and Gazelem must be the only regulars who pass for TBMs on this board, and they have to talk to somebody.

Do you have a real job?

P

Don't feel bad, Wade. Plutarch makes idiotic posts too. In his way, he's just like you, willing to go to any length to prove the church is true and it usually ends up idiotic.

Ya know?

Plutarch must have had some time on his hands today after losing yet another case with his rediculous logic.

[_Sam Harris]

You said: "Gaz isn't feeling validated these days, so he lashes out in this manner."


Actually I am feeling sick and pissy, and therefore incapable of tact. And psycology is a hot button for me.

Psychology is a hot button for your dumb ass because you are so demonstrably in need of it.

I saw your post about depriving your child. My mom used to do that in her sicko days. If I didn't clean my room, she'd throw away all my toys, books, even take the sheets off my bed.

You're such a wonderful role model, Gaz. And how smart, tell the child he can't watch TV except on saturdays so you don't miss your TV land reruns during the week. How else would you find a way to model your life?

I'm sick too. Stop bitching. Remember what you said about other people bitching?

[_Sam Harris]

Had to consult with the wife on this.

The teacher recommended we have him looked at, then we had to find a pediatrition and a therapist that our insurance would cover.

Oh, okay. It wouldn't have been ethical for her to refer you to a specific doctor. That's why I asked. Now this...


THE WIFE???? Stop that! I hate it when men refer to their wives as THE WIFE. That sounds like "the chair", "the car", "the weedwacker". Men! Sheesh!

Jersey Girl

Jersey Girl, Gaz is the typical TBM mysoginist, ignorant to everything but what the prophet and Archie Bunker have to say.