Former Stake President managing MormonThink

[_tapirrider]

Joseph Smith didn't run around correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone.

By your reasoning, he let false statement get published in the Messenger and Advocate simply because he was not the editor. Are you telling me that he knew that it was not in New York but he allowed Oliver Cowdery and Orson Pratt to say it was? It is a lame excuse to say that he did not run around correcting everything. They were in his top leadership. Nice try though on your part, to claim that the words of his assistant president of the church and one of his Apostles were no more than the "speculation and rumor by everyone".

Are you quite certain that you want to go with his "ACTUAL statements"?

"It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where the Nephites left them: and that a large stone with engravings upon it, as Mosiah said; and a ‘large round stone, with the sides sculptured in hieroglyphics,’ as Mr. Stephens has published"

I hate to be the one to break the news to you. The Mayan written language can be read. Mayan "engravings" or "hieroglyphics" were able to be translated in the 20th century. There is no written record of Zarahemla. It is silly to claim that what Joseph Smith "actually did say" has any basis in reality.

[_Tobin]

Joseph Smith didn't run around correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone.

By your reasoning, he let false statement get published in the Messenger and Advocate simply because he was not the editor. Are you telling me that he knew that it was not in New York but he allowed Oliver Cowdery and Orson Pratt to say it was? It is a lame excuse to say that he did not run around correcting everything. They were in his top leadership. Nice try though on your part, to claim that the words of his assistant president of the church and one of his Apostles were no more than the "speculation and rumor by everyone".

Are you quite certain that you want to go with his "ACTUAL statements"?

"It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where the Nephites left them: and that a large stone with engravings upon it, as Mosiah said; and a ‘large round stone, with the sides sculptured in hieroglyphics,’ as Mr. Stephens has published"

I hate to be the one to break the news to you. The Mayan written language can be read. Mayan "engravings" or "hieroglyphics" were able to be translated in the 20th century. There is no written record of Zarahemla. It is silly to claim that what Joseph Smith "actually did say" has any basis in reality.

Again, that has little to do with what I stated to you. The point is, this is where Joseph Smith confirmed it was with an actual statement. Now, do I believe Joseph Smith knew exactly where the Book of Mormon actually occured (he seemed to have a hemispherical idea that is very unlikely). I seriously doubt that he really knew. But, in the case he might have, I just think one should rely on what can be confirmed that Joseph Smith stated or more importantly what Moroni reportedly said to Joseph Smith, than speculations by others that wouldn't have any idea what-so-ever.

[_Darth J]

I hate to be the one to break the news to you. The Mayan written language can be read. Mayan "engravings" or "hieroglyphics" were able to be translated in the 20th century. There is no written record of Zarahemla. It is silly to claim that what Joseph Smith "actually did say" has any basis in reality.

But the infinite regress of inanity that is Mormon apologetics will not stop there:

"We don't know for sure that Joseph Smith actually set the type on the printing press. So we don't know with absolute, god-like certainty that this editorial is really what he said."

A few months ago, The Mighty Builder was doing this thing where in every thread, he would post "You don't know, you weren't there, nobody knows." A lot of people were irritated by it, but he had a point---a point that Tobin is now demonstrating. When Joseph Smith or other Mormon leaders say things that turn out to be falsifiable (and falsified), then our ability to know what they really said at all comes into question. Tobin is doing that in this thread. Mormons of all kinds reflexively do it when history turns out to be unkind.

Of course, if we don't really know what they said, then we don't know whether they said the faith-promoting things attributed to them, either. And eventually we will reach the point of, "I don't have any idea what Joseph Smith may or may not have said about any given topic. But I bear you my solemn witness, that I know he was a prophet of God."

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'd like Tobin to address the Hill Cumorah issue, after reading direct quotes from not only Lucy Smith, but an Apostle of the Lord.

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_tapirrider]

Again, that has little to do with what I stated to you. The point is, this is where Joseph Smith confirmed it was with an actual statement. Now, do I believe Joseph Smith knew exactly where the Book of Mormon actually occured (he seemed to have a hemispherical idea that is very unlikely). I seriously doubt that he really knew. But, in the case he might have, I just think one should rely on what can be confirmed that Joseph Smith stated or more importantly what Moroni reportedly said to Joseph Smith, than speculations by others that wouldn't have any idea what-so-ever.

Has little to do with it? Let's take a look at silly. "Joseph Smith didn't run around correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone."

At the beginning of Oliver Cowdery's eight letters on the early history of the church, the Messenger and Advocate stated that Joseph Smith would help to ensure that it was accurate and Joseph did offer corrections, but none about Cumorah.

Messenger and Advocate, Volume I. No. 1., October, 1834, page 13
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n01.htm

"That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us."

If you have never seen or read these letters, here are sources:

Letter 1
Messenger and Advocate, Volume I. No. 1., October, 1834, pages 13-16
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n01.htm

Letter 2
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 2., November, 1834, pages 27-32
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n02.htm

Insert from Joseph Smith
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 3., December 1834, page 40
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n03.htm

Letter 3
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 3., December 1834, pages 41-43
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n03.htm

Letter 4
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 5., February, 1835, pages 77-80
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n05.htm

Letter 5
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 6., March, 1835, pages 95-96
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n06.htm

Letter 6
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 7., April, 1835, pages 108-112
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n07.htm

Letter 7
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. I. No. 10., July, 1835, pages 155-159
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n10.htm

Letter 8
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. II No. 1., October, 1835, pages 195-202
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v2n01.htm

They were republished in Liverpool in 1844
http://archive.org/details/lettersbyoliverc00oliv

[_Tobin]

Again, that has little to do with what I stated to you. The point is, this is where Joseph Smith confirmed it was with an actual statement. Now, do I believe Joseph Smith knew exactly where the Book of Mormon actually occured (he seemed to have a hemispherical idea that is very unlikely). I seriously doubt that he really knew. But, in the case he might have, I just think one should rely on what can be confirmed that Joseph Smith stated or more importantly what Moroni reportedly said to Joseph Smith, than speculations by others that wouldn't have any idea what-so-ever.

Has little to do with it? Let's take a look at silly. "Joseph Smith didn't run around correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone."

At the beginning of Oliver Cowdery's eight letters on the early history of the church, the Messenger and Advocate stated that Joseph Smith would help to ensure that it was accurate and Joseph did offer corrections, but none about Cumorah.
Messenger and Advocate, Volume I. No. 1., October, 1834, page 13
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n01.htm

"That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us."

You make it sound like Joseph Smith edited, wrote, and reviewed everything in these letters. I think you are being completely disingenuous. The case is, Joseph Smith simply supplied source documents and making sure those references were genuine and accurate. These are not papers produced by Joseph Smith, as you seem to characterize it, but instead only had a tertiary involvement by Joseph Smith. And as I've said, there were numerous speculations about where the Book of Mormon took place and Joseph Smith felt no need to "correct" any of them. His silence is meaningless as I've repeatedly pointed out to you. He never stated it himself (as he may not have been sure) nor more importantly, neither did the Angel Moroni. The fact you would trot out the view that Phelps would be more of an expert on the location than Joseph Smith or the Angel Moroni is pure comedy. But that is standard fare of Mormon critics.

[_tapirrider]

The fact you would trot out the view that Phelps would be more of an expert on the location than Joseph Smith or the Angel Moroni is pure comedy. But that is standard fare of Mormon critics.

Phelps? Oliver Cowdery wrote the letters I am referring to. He was the assistant president of the church. He was one of the three witnesses and allegedly saw Moroni. And Joseph Smith offered to assist so that it would be correct. Get your facts straight.

[_Tobin]

The fact you would trot out the view that Phelps would be more of an expert on the location than Joseph Smith or the Angel Moroni is pure comedy. But that is standard fare of Mormon critics.

Phelps? Oliver Cowdery wrote the letters I am referring to. He was the assistant president of the church. He was one of the three witnesses and allegedly saw Moroni. And Joseph Smith offered to assist so that it would be correct. Get your facts straight.

It's actually an exchange of letters between Phelps and Cowdrey. And so what? Cowdrey was ALSO excommunicated I seem to remember and as far as I know, not a Nephite angel.

[_tapirrider]

It's actually an exchange of letters between Phelps and Cowdrey. And so what? Cowdrey was ALSO excommunicated I seem to remember and as far as I know, not a Nephite angel.

OMG. Read COWDERY's letters. I gave you links. I have not mentioned Phelps letters. I have not linked to them. They are Cowdery's letters that I am talking about. Why in the world are you adding more than what we are discussing? Again, get your facts straight.

Question for you. You seem fond of sticking to your guns with the Times and Seasons and Stephens Incidents of Travel. The Kinderhook plates were written about in the Times and Seasons a short time later.

Vol. IV. No. 12., May 1, 1843, page 185
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v4n12.htm

A person could argue that Joseph thought the region of the United States included Book of Mormon people because of the Kinderhook plates. But we also know that those plates were a hoax. Just as we know that the Mayan writing Joseph praised in the extract from Incidents and Travels does not mention a thing about the Book of Mormon, especially nothing about Zarahemla.

You seem to be suggesting that Joseph Smith did not know whether the final battle happened in New York or Central America, but he did not correct his assistant president of the church, did not correct his apostle Orson Pratt, and allowed them to promote that it did happen in New York.

An intellectually honest person does not allow unkowns to be presented as truths. So what are you telling me about Joseph Smith's character in this?

[_Darth J]

Here is Joseph Smith History 1:51:

Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a ahill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

See that footnote a up there? Here's what where it sends you:

D&C 128:20

And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed.

Why doesn't the Tobin Star Trek god finally have Tobin start his own church to correct all these false ideas promulgated by the LDS Church? You know, like that the hill of considerable size in Ontario County, New York is the Hill Cumorah?

In D&C 28, we read how the Lord had Joseph Smith correct Hiram Page, who had deceived many Saints (including Oliver Cowdery) with false teachings from a seer stone. In 1831, the Lord told the Saints not to receive the teachings of anyone other than Joseph Smith (D&C 43:1-7). In 1831, the Lord also revealed, through Joseph Smith, to beware of false spirits (D&C 50; D&C 52).

In fact, during the Kirtland period--when Oliver Cowdery's letters were published in the Church's newspaper--Joseph Smith was greatly concerned about “many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out of doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; … many ridiculous things were entered into, calculated to bring disgrace upon the Church of God, to cause the Spirit of God to be withdrawn” (History of the Church, 4:580). (Source: http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?l ... 82620aRCRD). Given Joseph Smith's concern about false teachings, his silence is very telling if the Church's own newspaper was printing false statements about where the Hill Cumorah is---since that is a central part of Mormonism's foundational claims.

Tobin has also shown on this board that he readily accepts History of the Church as a valid source of Mormon history. And yet a great many things put in Joseph Smith's voice in HOC were in fact said by other people. Most of what we are told about the advent of the Book of Mormon comes from people who are not Joseph Smith. The "Urim and Thumim" reference in the official Joseph Smith History was made by someone other than Joseph Smith, yet Tobin insists that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thumim to translate. So what we have with Tobin is a case of special pleading when it comes to Cumorah.

Maybe Tobin could find a single "speculation or rumor" from Joseph Smith's lifetime printed in a church-owned publication which indicated that the Hill Cumorah was anywhere other than in upstate New York.

Tobin's "straight from the Prophet's mouth" quote about Quirigua proving that Zarahemla was a real place does not make anything better. It makes the situation much, much worse. You see, Joseph Smith claimed that he had learned about the Nephites and Lamanites through divine revelation.

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n09.htm#706

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgement [abridgment] of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent.

If the angel Moroni showed all this to Joseph Smith, it is curious that he mistook Mayan ruins for Nephite ones.