Three Powerful Books

[_Lemmie]

Anyone looking for a laugh should jump to minute 16:30 of the Holland talk. Wow is that guy disingenuous or lacking in self-awareness. I'm sure he thought in 2015 that his interfaith audience would be slightly shamed by it - and the Mormon members feel puffed up about the relative poverty of they lay leadership who gave up the world and wealth to serve like apostles of old - though no one who knew the church would have been able to avoid a whiplash-inducing eye roll. In 2020, I doubt even Holland would dare say that in public.

With a straight face he said that. Unbelievable. Was “the word to wise” comment intended to mean “get better at hiding it, like us?”

[_Lemmie]

that's awesome Doc! I spent the day in my personal forest enjoying a day of studying chess and listening to the breeze moving through my pines. Absolutely perfect day, drank a lot of ice water, and an Irish Death, dark smooth ale. A friend of mine introduced this drink to me, and there's nuthin like it on a hot day, sittin in the shade, learning chess. I mean paradise for an 8 hour day off. Dunno if it ever gets better than this! Oh, and homemade lasagna with cheese toast for lunch. I mean.......ahhhhhhhhhh...... who cares if there is a next life? We are here now, heaven can wait. I'm really enjoying this place!

I, too, spent the day in my personal forever forest! Nothing fancy. Mostly hands in the dirt, pulling weeds, playing with the hose (my favorite) and talking to "Mama"--->she has a new fawn on our property--when she gets close enough to hear me. A hummer zoomed right by my face, I kid you not! Otherwise talking to the cat and also we're dog sitting so he was my worthy assistant.

This world was created for our stewardship and pleasure. That's where it's at for me.

p.s. I stupidly killed a bird. Had to give it a send off.

Aww, you are too kind! I am intrigued by the idea of a “personal forever forest”! And mentioning stewardship and pleasure together sounds like an excellent take on our existence.

[_Jersey Girl]

I, too, spent the day in my personal forever forest! Nothing fancy. Mostly hands in the dirt, pulling weeds, playing with the hose (my favorite) and talking to "Mama"--->she has a new fawn on our property--when she gets close enough to hear me. A hummer zoomed right by my face, I kid you not! Otherwise talking to the cat and also we're dog sitting so he was my worthy assistant.

This world was created for our stewardship and pleasure. That's where it's at for me.

p.s. I stupidly killed a bird. Had to give it a send off.

Aww, you are too kind! I am intrigued by the idea of a “personal forever forest”! And mentioning stewardship and pleasure together sounds like an excellent take on our existence.

Well, I think it's important to know that the hummingbird was dive bombing me because it's feeders were empty. And I am guilty of killing a bird, so there's that, too. ;-) I live in on acreage in a Ponderosa pine forest. A habitat that I share with mule deer, raccoons, red foxes, bobcats, black bears, Abert Squirrels and a variety of birds. Part of our property is what you might think of as Bambi's thicket. Every Spring we have one or more Mamas that use that part for a nursery. They come close to the house to graze on grass, Dog Bane, and---->my flowers.

I didn't know until I took certain classes that I had been a naturalist all my life. Going back to Jersey where as a child I planted my own tree farm from Maple seeds and how I knew the names of every shell on the beach or every sea creature that lived in that ecosystem. My pockets were always full of shells,rocks, and sand. When I go back there, I bring a carry on and pack it full of the same. In middle school we did a class at a marine lab on Sandy Hook. Part of that class had us charting the waters around the Hook including Plum island. I was fully fascinated by it.

In any case, I feel like I've always understood nature, the interdependencies found in ecosystems, including our part in them. So, that is where the stewardship piece comes into play. Preventing sand erosion on the beaches, re-foresting burn scars on mountains, wildfire mitigation, low impact camping practices, not over-picking areas of wildflowers--my head and my life have both been full of those kinds of practices. When we lose parts of those ecosystems, animals suffer and so does humanity suffer. It's a balance and when humans enter the ecosystem temporarily or permanently, I believe that it's our responsibility to preserve it.

Stop writing a book, Jersey!

So yeah, the stewardship and pleasure also happens to be Biblical. But I didn't know that when I made my childhood observations and grew to believe those principles for interacting with or in, and preserving the natural world. Out of doors was where I spent most of my time. I loved reading Cam and Philo Sofee's posts and how they expressed their relationship to and appreciation for nature. You don't have to be a God believer to share similar viewpoints. They know where their free therapy is just like I do. ;-)

[_Jersey Girl]

Personally, I find so much is available to learn in the factual universe, more than a lifetime’s worth. Not believing in an imaginary supernatural thing in no way limits the delight I can take in the beauty of this natural world.

Truth. I'm currently hiking the Tahoe Rim trail. Two nights ago I was laying under some enormous cedars or pines (not sure what they are up here) and was noticing the fractal nature of their growth patterns. These giants taking hundreds of years to grow follow a very simple recursion from the tiniest sprig to the largest branch. Suddenly it dawned on me how all of creation follows this infinite fractal recursion throughout its design process. And voila. That's life. This infinite repetition with tiny variations from one thing to the next, recursively begetting outwardly complex things from clouds to trees to human beings. Absolutely fascinating to observe and think about.

- Doc

Sequoias, I think. :-)

[_honorentheos]

From the OP

These three books have had a big influence on me as I’ve read many books, pro and con.

Don’t rely on what others might say about any one of these books. After all, this is just a message board with many differing opinions. Read them for yourself. Elder Callister’s book is the one I’ve read most recently. Any lurkers on this board...please pick these books up and read them. Any ONE of them might cause you to do a 180 degree turn around if you’re struggling with Book of Mormon issues. In my opinion, however, a reasonable person who reads all three has some serious thinking to do.

It seems that as we bring this thread to a close we learned something about MG's motives for participating here if we learned anything.

In MG's mind, he's trying to counterbalance arguments that he feels lead people into atheism/agnosticism. And despite all of his protests regarding live and let live, he really views it as a Manichean struggle where the fate of the world hangs in the balance. Why? Religion having the "freedom" to assert itself onto others through infringing laws and discrimination that are in conflict with a pluralistic, democratic society.

Anyway, it took a while to get here but it wasn't where I thought we'd end up. It does explain why MG never goes into depth in the subjects he raises, though. It's because he isn't actually reading books to engage their content. He doesn't grapple with new idea to understand how they may or may not affect his understanding of the world. He isn't brining ideas to the forum at all. He's just here trying to catfish lurkers into avoiding doing the thinking themselves as well.

I think this helps illustrate something I believe in when it comes to discussing with believers: Taking it serious enough to force them to be serious rather than just combative exposes it. And once expose it inevitable reveals itself to be another form of institutional church angrily protesting that their eternal importance they claim is so easily dismissed by most people because it's a lie. It was a lie in 1830. It's a lie today.

Go be a granddad to your grandkids, MG, and try not to screw them up too much with your old "the world is going to hell in a hand basket because gays can marry and beer is sold at Smith's." routine. I'm sure they will be alright because there is a world of information out there they will encounter and figure things out for themselves. You're on the wrong side of this, MG. Historically, scientifically AND especially morally.

[_honorentheos]

Anyone looking for a laugh should jump to minute 16:30 of the Holland talk. Wow is that guy disingenuous or lacking in self-awareness. I'm sure he thought in 2015 that his interfaith audience would be slightly shamed by it - and the Mormon members feel puffed up about the relative poverty of they lay leadership who gave up the world and wealth to serve like apostles of old - though no one who knew the church would have been able to avoid a whiplash-inducing eye roll. In 2020, I doubt even Holland would dare say that in public.

With a straight face he said that. Unbelievable. Was “the word to wise” comment intended to mean “get better at hiding it, like us?”

Good catch. I'm not up on which of the apostles knew about the multi-billion dollar fund before the leak but even still he had to be winking at someone as he said that.

[_mentalgymnast]

From the OP

These three books have had a big influence on me as I’ve read many books, pro and con.

Don’t rely on what others might say about any one of these books. After all, this is just a message board with many differing opinions. Read them for yourself. Elder Callister’s book is the one I’ve read most recently. Any lurkers on this board...please pick these books up and read them. Any ONE of them might cause you to do a 180 degree turn around if you’re struggling with Book of Mormon issues. In my opinion, however, a reasonable person who reads all three has some serious thinking to do.

It seems that as we bring this thread to a close we learned something about MG's motives for participating here if we learned anything.

Free exchange of ideas.

Religion [has] the "freedom" to assert itself onto others through infringing laws and discrimination that are in conflict with a pluralistic, democratic society.

Religious institutions have the right to assert themselves into the legal process within a pluralistic society. Secularists have the right to do the same thing. With the cancel culture and the woke movement we can see what happens when one side tries to literally shut down the other. It isn’t the religious institutions that are behind cancel culture and the woke movement. The far left which in my estimation is composed mainly of secularists and those that are irreligious in the institutional sense, would just as well shut down the voices of religious institutions when it comes to right to life, traditional marriage, etc. The woke culture and the cancel culture movement has no desire to end up in a place of pluralism in our society. It’s their way or the highway. My guess is that you are more or less in favor of what these folks are doing.

Anyway, it took a while to get here but it wasn't where I thought we'd end up.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that we ended up at this place. There will always be a divide between those that are fighting against God and those that fight for God. It’s an age old battle. Repackaged in some respects, but the same battle.

It does explain why MG never goes into depth in the subjects he raises, though. It's because he isn't actually reading books to engage their content. He doesn't grapple with new idea to understand how they may or may not affect his understanding of the world. He isn't brining ideas to the forum at all. He's just here trying to catfish lurkers into avoiding doing the thinking themselves as well.

As I said, I am a layperson when it comes to scientific explorations. Science and scientific endeavors have always been of interest to me, but I am not a specialist in any scientific area. That will obviously limit the amount that I can contribute when it gets down to the nitty-gritty. I realize that. I’ve admitted that. I would guess that I’m not alone coming from that vantage point or background. On the contrary, I’ve brought ideas into the forum. I hadn’t seen anyone discussing information theory before I brought it in. Other examples could be given. That’s the most recent.

I grapple with new ideas the best that I can with the time and ability that I have. The fact is, I look at faith and reason as being compatible at the outset. That’s where we do differ and will continue to differ. As far as lurkers go, I would encourage them to search, ponder, and pray. Don’t leave any stone unturned. But keep a balance. I think it is unwise to make a conclusive decision in regards to God when there is so much to learn and discover. Those that have come down on the side of secular humanism and either agnosticism and atheism have put themselves into a box of their own making. Remaining open to a creator God really has no downside unless that belief leads to do things that either harm oneself or others. Secular humanists are those that have no relationship to a God who has prescribed laws to live by and have become gods unto themselves. They make up their own rules and their own morality. Those laws and morality may or may not be conducive to a healthy, pluralistic society in the long run. They would like you to think so though. The founders of our nation suggested that this republic would only continue to exist with a people who believe in a God given set of laws and rights. There is movement to move away from that ideal set up and initiated by the original constitutionalists.

That is a danger to society. I have come to that conclusion exclusively through thinking for myself, as hard as that may be for you to accept. My guess is, that you know that I and others like me do think for ourselves. We are not dupes. Unlike the liberal far left and those that fall in line behind Hitchens, and Co.

I think this helps illustrate something I believe in when it comes to discussing with believers: Taking it serious enough to force them to be serious rather than just combative exposes it. And once expose it inevitable reveals itself to be another form of institutional church angrily protesting that their eternal importance they claim is so easily dismissed by most people because it's a lie. It was a lie in 1830. It's a lie today.

Wow. What a dogmatic and arrogant position to take. I am concerned that you, like Lemmie, have underlying issues or other concerns that may affect your religious belief. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are other folks here that have either had familial issues or other life issues that have turned them against God and they try and defend that disconnection and/or underlying anger through intellectual endeavors do push Him aside. Textbook definition of implicit bias.

Go be a granddad to your grandkids, MG, and try not to screw them up too much with your old "the world is going to hell in a hand basket because gays can marry and beer is sold at Smith's."

You folks love to set up caricatures don’t you? If you were around to hear our conversations, you would see that they are nothing like what you are trying to portray. Silly secularist.

I'm sure they will be all right...

They are all right. They are also being raised in families that believe in God and in obeying His commandments. They are well balanced, fun loving, and smart kids.

...because there is a world of information out there they will encounter and figure things out for themselves.

Of that I have no doubt. What I find interesting, however, is that you and your kind appear to think that there’s only one answer out there that is ‘true’. And that is the rejection and replacement of religion with secular humanism. Pluralism at its best, huh?

Why would you even take a matter of fact position to say that my grandkids can only go one direction once they figure things out? You ARE in a box of your own making, aren’t you? You and your kind do want to take over societal norms and practices, don’t you?

You're on the wrong side of this, MG. Historically, scientifically AND especially morally.

The battle lines have been drawn, haven’t they? And we are all enlisted, on one side or the other, aren’t we?

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

From the OP

It seems that as we bring this thread to a close we learned something about MG's motives for participating here if we learned anything.

<snip>
The battle lines have been drawn, haven’t they? And we are all enlisted, on one side or the other, aren’t we?

Regards,
MG

Of course.

A: The entire process is not what you think it is.

It is specifically designed to be uncomfortable for the other person because it isn’t about converting them to your religion. It is about manipulating you so you can’t leave yours.

...The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the “others”.

...Once again they will learn that the only place they are accepted is with the people who think as they do. ...They bond as they share their experiences of reaching out to the godless people to bring them the truth. They share the otherness they experience.

This is a pain reward cycle that is a common brainwashing technique.

[_Res Ipsa]

And being wrong is it's own kind of prison when it comes to having freedom to discover and learn. Arrogantly insisting one is right while being wrong is a curse I don't wish on anyone but here you are.

At the end of the day it is a matter of who is right and who is wrong, isn’t it? What worries me about the fact that more and more people such as yourself are running about is that over the long haul you and your kind could become a majority. If this were to take place, life as we have known it and the freedoms that we enjoy would be in jeopardy. Here me out...or for a better voice than mine...listen to this full speech given by Jeffrey Holland a few years ago at Chapman University in California. The meaty part of the address begins a bit after the eight minute mark and continues to the end.

In the here and now and in individual situations, lives based upon secularism may not be injurious to society as a whole. But that day may very well come if some worrisome trends continue. And that, my friend, is what concerns me when I communicate with those such as yourself. The agnostic/atheist crowd does not hold up well for the overall health, progress, and development of a free and open society.

If this doesn’t start around the eight minute mark you’ll have to rewind/back it up...

https://youtu.be/Ol9lzCG7E7k

Nothing against you personally and your right to non-belief in God (one that has laws and expectations for humanity), but everything to do with your kind becoming the norm rather than what still is an anomaly/minority.

The long term ramifications of being wrong are catastrophic.

Regards,
MG

Every once in a while MG lets the mask slip, and we get a peek at what motivates him. It's not pretty. All that superficial nuance is powered by plain old black and white, tribal thinking. He's enlisted himself as a foot soldier in a made up existential war. He has to have an enemy, because his God says so, and so he makes one up -- his fellow humans. Yeah, more people like Honor is an existential threat. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[_Dr Exiled]

Anyone looking for a laugh should jump to minute 16:30 of the Holland talk. Wow is that guy disingenuous or lacking in self-awareness. I'm sure he thought in 2015 that his interfaith audience would be slightly shamed by it - and the Mormon members feel puffed up about the relative poverty of they lay leadership who gave up the world and wealth to serve like apostles of old - though no one who knew the church would have been able to avoid a whiplash-inducing eye roll. In 2020, I doubt even Holland would dare say that in public.

Dodo, if you read this, I think even the slowest among us can see the blatant hypocrisy in your implying that cojcolds isn't overly concerned with money or politics, back then in 2015 and especially now. However, I guess accusing others of doing exactly what you, yourself do, works to a certain degree, and so I don't fault you for trying. It's just in this case ..... it makes you ..... well ...... look like a dodo.