Reasons people stopped attending church

[Marcus]

This is a tough one. I had to go to Perplexity A.I. to get some help.

It's a toss up...

Russell Nelson said I can’t have pad Thai in heaven unless I pay my 10% to his corporation. It’s going to be cold cheese sandwiches for eternity.

It’s a good motivator.

Assuming you believe him. Otherwise, threats of the "...just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait..." variety fall a little flat.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

Bump

How come I'm always the one answering questions and you seem to get a free pass.

Because you're defying the rigid orthodoxy that the majority in this particular thread (or perhaps even most of those who adopt Ex-Mormon as an identity as rigid as their Mormon identity ever was) insist is The One True and Everlasting Unchanging Church of Christ. (Hey, if it can't ever change, then we gotta go back to the FIRST name used by the entity now calling itself The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Impossible Acronyms. If it can't change, then it can't change. Let's be consistent.)

Well....except for those changes that are Officially Approved™ (when the board owner is actively involved in this reductionism, what else are we left to conclude?) because said changes make the church look stupid, harmful, plainly false (as if faith were subject to empiricism), and its members---ALL its members, since 1830---have been completely devoid of any capacity for complex or age-appropriate reasoning.

Such ex-Mormons are more Mormon than the Mormonism that takes up so much free rent inside their heads.

This is why I've limited my participation in Mormon spaces over the past 30 years. All the bad-faith interpretations of any deviation from orthodoxy gives me a headache. It gave me a headache when I was active; it gives me an even bigger headache coming from ExMos.

And, yes, I "limit" my participation; I haven't cut it off completely. I make the best decisions I can for myself and my family. For example, I would love to bring my children to their grandparents' church once in a while. After all, my kids are half-Mormon---an assertion no one would contest if we were Jewish, and Mormons pretty much consider themselves Honorary Jews.

But I don't do it because I don't want my children to say or do anything that would disrespect the faith of their grandparents and most of their aunts and uncles. It pains my parents that I left; it pains them I didn't raise my kids in the church. I see no reason to rub salt in that wound. My parents have been nothing but loving towards me and, later, towards my husband and children. Why would I intentionally hurt them? Oh, what a terrible, terrible person I am! (And a liar, too!)

See, by painting us both as liars, MG, then anything we say can be dismissed out-of-hand without any serious examination on the merits or effort to see it from our perspectives. Just cross-examination on the minutiae of our word choices.

I don't recall if we've ever interacted before, MG. If we have, I don't recall if we've ever disagreed. But I, too, was taught the doctrine of Eternal Progression (this was in the '90s). The gist was that, when I agreed to leave the pre-mortal existence and take on a body, I also agreed to kick-start this process of becoming more and more righteous forever. I was taught there are "Infinite Degrees of Glory" and that I would continue this progression even after death, because I signed up for that when I "chose" to be born. (I no longer believe that, but I did at the time, and it feels much more recognizably Mormon to me.)

I don't recall anything about only progressing "as far as far as we want to," because progression was eternal by definition. We're supposed to work on becoming better people in this life, sort of like a test-run for continuing to progress after death. Progression never ended.

So, you're not imagining things, MG. That doctrine was taught 30+ years ago. "Sad Heaven" and the emphasis on separation from one's family seem to be the hobbyhorse of more recent church leadership, perhaps in response to declining attendance. (Nothing gets butts in pews like fearing you'll never see Grandma again.) The implication was there, because you still had to accept your ordinances, either in this life for yourself or after death by proxy. But it wasn't emphasized as heavily as it is today. Nobody has to tell you to "stay in the boat," when the boat is a comfortable, happy place that one wants to be. You only have to exhort people to stay in the boat when they're jumping out of it!

"What The Church Teaches" is only as consistent as any given ward's Gospel Doctrine teacher. It's probably more correlated now than it was 30 years ago. Technology has boosted correlation significantly. But "Mormonism" is still what you learn on Sundays at your local meetings. General Conference didn't have as much influence because it wasn't being streamed live worldwide back then. We watched it at the stake center twice a year.....and then it sort of faded away for six months and we were back in the hands (and the pet theories) of the presidencies of our own local leaders.

Some of these assertions you're being called out to answer for don't even make sense. If one doesn't leave the church when finding out about Helen Mar Kimball, then you're "sanctioning child rape." But....if the church were "true" (whatever that means to those who insist that's the only real reason for leaving), then that is the position that's sanctioning child rape, because that's saying they would have remained Mormon---even with full knowledge of Joseph's perverted behavior, simply because "Well, but the church is still true!" That would be sanctioning child rape.

Every religion that survives 200+ years (many have survived for thousands of years; Mormonism is still very young) change their orthodoxy and change how strictly members are expected to adhere to it over time. The surrounding cultures change (Mormonism is still predominantly American culturally, even if most new converts are not). Church leadership changes. Mormons have changed their orthodoxy many times. Right down to what the church is called. It's changed quite a bit for being one of the newer kids on the theological block.

I can't say I understand how you've made that work, MG, but it's none of my business. I do understand how far a good and relatively healthy ward can go! But you're under no obligation to answer to other people for why you're still a believing member. You do you. Be the best you possible.

What puzzles me more is how ex-Mormons still make it work. Where are the personal boundaries? The concept of "private"? I understand never entirely letting it go. I can't just "let go" of the most formative years of my life. I enjoy discussing Mormonism with my very nuanced, but devoutly believing sister. We respect each other's views and find them interesting; we don't judge each other---and we don't tell tales to Mom and Dad.

My sister is the most Christ-like Christian I've ever known. She listens to the promptings of the Spirit first, then to her church leaders, her husband, her parents, and other people who make it their business to tell her what she "should" believe. But first and foremost, she listens to what God tells her to believe. She returns unkindness with kindness. Perhaps no one here would respect that, but why would she care? Why would I? It works for her. She's a good Christian, a loving wife, mother, sister, daughter, friend, employee, and citizen of her world.

These days, a Mormon for 5 years becomes a professional ex-Mormon for 15 years! I can't wrap my head around that. Joining a church and then leaving it in a huff should not be a good career move. I just can't be bothered to think about it that much anymore.

[Marcus]

...These days, a Mormon for 5 years becomes a professional ex-Mormon for 15 years! I can't wrap my head around that. Joining a church and then leaving it in a huff should not be a good career move. I just can't be bothered to think about it that much anymore...

Wow. That was your trajectory? You left in a huff? It sounds quite painful. My condolences.

And, yes, I "limit" my participation; I haven't cut it off completely. I make the best decisions I can for myself and my family. For example, I would love to bring my children to their grandparents' church once in a while...
But I don't do it because I don't want my children to say or do anything that would disrespect the faith of their grandparents and most of their aunts and uncles...

A more appropriate decision might be to just teach your children better manners.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

...These days, a Mormon for 5 years becomes a professional ex-Mormon for 15 years! I can't wrap my head around that. Joining a church and then leaving it in a huff should not be a good career move. I just can't be bothered to think about it that much anymore...

Wow. That was your trajectory? You left in a huff? It sounds quite painful. My condolences.

Perhaps you should learn to read. A mind a terrible thing to waste.

I did not leave in a huff. I left very young. Around 18-20 years old. I am also not a "professional ex-Mormon." I was quite clearly referring to a handful of exMo content creators who joined the church for a couple of years, THEY left in a huff---and then turned their brief Mormon experience into a years-long career path.

A more appropriate decision might be to just teach your children better manners.

Go jump in the lake, Marcus. You know absolutely nothing about my children or their manners. You're making sarcastic assumptions just to be an asshole----not about my kids, Marcus. Don't even go there.

And you're nitpicking my words----just as I said you would do. My kids are....well, frankly they're more well-mannered than you are by miles and they haven't even reached adulthood yet. Wow, that sure says something, don't it?

They would not intentionally hurt their grandparents. But they know almost nothing about the Mormon faith, they don't understand why Grandma and Grandpa would be sad that I chose not to raise them in the church---and as a result, they might unintentionally hurt their grandparents.

Unlike you. Who is just being an asshole on purpose. Re-evaluate your moral compass and get back to me later.

[Marcus]

...They would not intentionally hurt their grandparents. But they know almost nothing about the Mormon faith, they don't understand why Grandma and Grandpa would be sad that I chose not to raise them in the church---and as a result, they might unintentionally hurt their grandparents...

That's not how manners work.

...just to be an asshole...

Yes, you have that covered.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

...They would not intentionally hurt their grandparents. But they know almost nothing about the Mormon faith, they don't understand why Grandma and Grandpa would be sad that I chose not to raise them in the church---and as a result, they might unintentionally hurt their grandparents...

That's not how manners work.

Yes, Marcus. That is how it works. I'm sorry you can't see that. But intent does matter.

...just to be an asshole...

Yes, you have that covered.

God have mercy on the LDS Church for the damage it's done to people. Because I don't truly believe you are an asshole, Marcus. I don't really believe almost anyone here is. I think the church has just hurt and damaged people until we behave in ways we would not have if we'd never been a part of it.

I'm also so thankful I got out when I did, and have been able to build as normal a life for myself as I have. Something deep in my soul knew I had to run away as fast as I could.

[MG 2.0]

I don't recall if we've ever interacted before, MG.

Not to my knowledge.

Every religion that survives 200+ years (many have survived for thousands of years; Mormonism is still very young) change their orthodoxy and change how strictly members are expected to adhere to it over time. The surrounding cultures change (Mormonism is still predominantly American culturally, even if most new converts are not). Church leadership changes. Mormons have changed their orthodoxy many times. Right down to what the church is called. It's changed quite a bit for being one of the newer kids on the theological block.

I can't say I understand how you've made that work, MG, but it's none of my business.

I don't mind that you have questions in regards to why I still believe and remain in the CofJCofLDS. It's not rocket science. It's either all true or it's all false. I've chosen true. To me, it makes sense. At the end of the day it is rather binary.

You do you. Be the best you possible.

Been on that road for almost seventy one years now!

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I think the church has just hurt and damaged people until we behave in ways we would not have if we'd never been a part of it.

I am questioning and/or failing to understand how following Jesus and his teachings results in "damaged" people.

I'm also so thankful I got out when I did, and have been able to build as normal a life for myself as I have. Something deep in my soul knew I had to run away as fast as I could.

That's interesting, but without context it doesn't really make sense. Why run away from something that gives you a blueprint on living a happy life and preparing for a happy hereafter?

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

I think the church has just hurt and damaged people until we behave in ways we would not have if we'd never been a part of it.

I am questioning and/or failing to understand how following Jesus and his teachings results in "damaged" people.

I'm also so thankful I got out when I did, and have been able to build as normal a life for myself as I have. Something deep in my soul knew I had to run away as fast as I could.

That's interesting, but without context it doesn't really make sense. Why run away from something that gives you a blueprint on living a happy life and preparing for a happy hereafter?

Regards,
MG

I feel sure that following the teachings of Jesus makes for better lives for people. The difficulty is that nobody understands perfectly how to do that in real life. Different cultures and different groups have developed different customs and ways of understanding that and carrying that out or pretending to carry it. None of these groups are perfect, but some may be a bit better than others.

[MG 2.0]

I am questioning and/or failing to understand how following Jesus and his teachings results in "damaged" people.

That's interesting, but without context it doesn't really make sense. Why run away from something that gives you a blueprint on living a happy life and preparing for a happy hereafter?

Regards,
MG

I feel sure that following the teachings of Jesus makes for better lives for people. The difficulty is that nobody understands perfectly how to do that in real life. Different cultures and different groups have developed different customs and ways of understanding that and carrying that out or pretending to carry it. None of these groups are perfect, but some may be a bit better than others.

Granted. My experience is that the LDS Church is hyper focused on following the teachings of Jesus Christ and encouraging its members to follow him and walk in his footsteps. We go to church week after week in order to further increase our knowledge and desire to do so.

My point was, why walk or run away from that?

Regards,
MG