Mystery Quote

[_Who Knows]

Yes I know, I saw where Dawkins quoted that. I'm a long time Jefferson reader, not so much his politics but his religious views, or his views on religion. If you look at more of his quotes/writings you'll see where he thinks very highly of Jesus' ethical teachings, but debunks miracles and the supernatural. He had very complex views, and if you take his writings in isolation you're very likely to come to the wrong conclusion about him. In some writings he condemns Christianity outright, and in others speaks very highly of Jesus. His views seems to have been somewhat like Paine's.

What wrong conclusions? Dawkins seems to think he was an atheist. I think you can still be an atheist while maintaining respect for christianity (speaking highly of it). I don't think Dawkins has meant to imply that Jefferson was an outspoken 'anti-christian'.

If you haven't read the recent Dawkins/Collins debate in Time magazine, it's well worth a read.

Thanks for the tip.

[_Ray A]

What wrong conclusions? Dawkins seems to think he was an atheist. I think you can still be an atheist while maintaining respect for christianity (speaking highly of it). I don't think Dawkins has meant to imply that Jefferson was an outspoken 'anti-christian'.

Jefferson was a deist. Here is one summary of his religious views:

In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day.

[_Who Knows]

Jefferson was a deist. Here is one summary of his religious views:

In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day.

Well, we'll have to re-visit this after you read what Dawkins has to say on the subject.

[_Ray A]

Well, we'll have to re-visit this after you read what Dawkins has to say on the subject.

I always keep an open mind, but I've studied Jefferson from primary sources, not secondary sources as Dawkins is. What I will do is check the index of The God Delusion and read what Dawkins says. I can get back on that later today (my time).

[_Who Knows]

Well, we'll have to re-visit this after you read what Dawkins has to say on the subject.

I always keep an open mind, but I've studied Jefferson from primary sources, not secondary sources as Dawkins is. What I will do is check the index of The God Delusion and read what Dawkins says. I can get back on that later today (my time).

I think what he boils it down to is definitions of what "God" actually is to different people. Is god an actual being? or is it just the name attributed to something unknown?

FYI, he talks about it somewhere in the first or second chapters.

Of course, i just could be remembering things wrong...

[_Ray A]

Who Knows, I checked the quotes in The God Delusion and they are selective. Hitchens has not established that Jefferson was atheist either. On page 42 of TGD Dawkins writes that Hitchens "thinks it likely" that Jefferson was atheist. Then on p.42 Dawkins draws no definite conclusion, writing "whether Jefferson and his colleagues were theists, deists, agnostics or atheists....". (He repeats this on p.45) In other words, he does not know. Hitchens himself wrote, "as to whether he was an atheist, we must reserve judgement...". I don't think Dawkins was jumping to any conclusion.

In a letter to Charles Thomson 9 January 1816, Jefferson wrote:

[The Jefferson Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw.

As I said, his views were complex. In some writings he condemns Christianity, and in others he praises it. The subtle definitions were his own making, he saw both good and evil in Christianity. For example:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

And again:

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

It is clear that Jefferson was antagonistic to organised religion which became corrupted by power and greed. But he did believe that Jesus was the "incomparably great teacher", whose teachings were not being followed by the priests.

He also had this to say about atheism:

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Whatever you read, read with a critical eye, and preferably from primary sources. Bias is everywhere.

Edit to add another Jefferson quote:

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

[_Runtu]

What else have you written, Runtu?

Here's something else I wrote in 1998 that I'm actually kind of happy to remember. It tells me that I was thinking, even back then.

I wonder why it is such a horrible thing to doubt, why a doubter must
stay in the "closet." To me, doubting is an essential ingredient in
faith and learning. When we doubt, we ask the really hard questions, we
get out of our comfortable spaces, and we do some real growing.

I think we do members a real disservice when we brush aside things they
find troubling and testimony-shaking. Too often the response is, "Don't
worry, the Church is true." In the meantime, these people go on
struggling with no one to talk to.

A few years ago, Elder Eyring gave a talk to the Church Education System
about this issue. He said that seminary teachers and leaders tended to
dismiss their students' doubts and questions as some sort of
rebelliousness. Rather, he said, such questioning is the mark of someone
who hungers for truth. It is the search to work through the doubts and
learn from them that strengthens testimony.

As I said in another post, I know the gospel is true, that it is of God.
That does not stop me from questioning, from learning from things I do
not understand or that may be difficult for me to accept. It was that
struggle that led to my conversion to the truth in the first place. Why
should I abandon that struggle now? And why should I be afraid of it?

[_beastie]

Hey, I'm currently reading The God Delusion, and am drinking Mike's Hard Lemonade!!! It's a club!! :)

Later in the book Dawkins says that a deist is simply an atheist who hasn't met the theory of evolution yet.

I've really enjoyed the book.

Runtu, you're inspiring me. Maybe I ought to dig out my old missionary journals... after I wrap more Xmas presents with Mike to help me, that is.

[_Runtu]

Hey, I'm currently reading The God Delusion, and am drinking Mike's Hard Lemonade!!! It's a club!! :)

Later in the book Dawkins says that a deist is simply an atheist who hasn't met the theory of evolution yet.

I've really enjoyed the book.

Runtu, you're inspiring me. Maybe I ought to dig out my old missionary journals... after I wrap more Xmas presents with Mike to help me, that is.

My missionary journals make me smile. A lot of the entries start out "Today really sucked." But I read them and see a little boy who was excited to be in the world.

[_Who Knows]

Ray,

Thanks for the information. I was actually reading that part on the plane (I hate flying) so how i internalized what Dawkins wrote was obviously a little skewed.

I guess it goes to show that we see what we want to see...