How does the church count exmembers and inactives?

[_Jason Bourne]

I do not see this. If I take 2005 and 2004 and do the math there is an increase, as this site shows, of 285,047. That is is. Just because they say there are 243,108 converts and 93,150 COR's does not make them claim there is an increase of 336,258. The two are independent.

I know that. As I clearly point out, the net increase should always be lower than the gross increase (converts plus children), since some Mormons will die (or have their names removed from the records or be excommunicated). 336,258 is the gross increase; 285,047 is the net increase. Net was less than gross, as expected.

But you're missing the point: The ghost members were added in 1999 and 1975, not in 2005 or 2004. See the numbers in red boldfaced text.

Ok, I see it. Point taken. But these are small blips in the overall numbers and just two years. Hardly a common practice.

[_moksha]

Could any of these unexplained increases in the membership have been the result of cloning? Since the abandonment of the Lamanite Project, LDS Geneticists must be keeping busy with other pursuits. What could be better than expanding the membership base?

[_Polygamy Porter]

Ray A is right.

They keep counting name-removed people in their totals as though nothing had happened.

Member who have their name removed are not counted, nor are excommunicated members. Children of members who asked to have their name removed are counted unless the parent has the child's name reviewed.

They keep their "lost contact" members on the books until they'd be 110.

This is correct.

In fact, they don't always remove the Mormons who die.

Yes they do, if they know about it.

To make matters worse, they sometimes add "ghost members" to the total with a keystroke or two to make the numbers look better.

No they do not.

Unless you can provide proof of this, I must call it speculative B***S*** on the part of defending member.

Hinck is a longtime spin doc for LDS Inc and is fully aware of what it would do to the morale of the tithe payers if he stood up and told the truth about membership growth, or the lack thereof.

A negative growth report could be like a round from the ski patrol's avalanche control gun

[_Jason Bourne]

Unless you can provide proof of this, I must call it speculative B***S*** on the part of defending member.

Hinck is a longtime spin doc for LDS Inc and is fully aware of what it would do to the morale of the tithe payers if he stood up and told the truth about membership growth, or the lack thereof.

A negative growth report could be like a round from the ski patrol's avalanche control gun

Let me see. You attack and say the stats lie. I speak from personal experience with records as the published stats show. YOu make wild ass accusations. And then I have to prove you wrong? Sorry chump. If you accuse that name removals and ghosting takes place you have to prove it. I conceded to the evidence for two year worth that somethin was off-by a very small percentage.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Unless you can provide proof of this, I must call it speculative B***S*** on the part of defending member.

Hinck is a longtime spin doc for LDS Inc and is fully aware of what it would do to the morale of the tithe payers if he stood up and told the truth about membership growth, or the lack thereof.

A negative growth report could be like a round from the ski patrol's avalanche control gun

Let me see. You attack and say the stats lie. I speak from personal experience with records as the published stats show. YOu make wild ass accusations. And then I have to prove you wrong? Sorry chump. If you accuse that name removals and ghosting takes place you have to prove it. I conceded to the evidence for two year worth that somethin was off-by a very small percentage.

Oh my bad. Brother Bourne is making favorable assumptions about the accounting practices of the bean counters in SLC all from his myopic view of membership accounting in his local ward office.

Greeeaaaatttt.

[_Dr. Shades]

Ok, I see it. Point taken. But these are small blips in the overall numbers and just two years. Hardly a common practice.

You're interpreting them as merely "small blips" due to the numerically small amount of ghost members compared to the grand total.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but the blips are actually much greater than they appear at first glance. You see, those two years are the only instances where we know for a fact that ghost member were added. This is because, in order for those ghost members to even be detected, there wasn't any loss of members due to "natural causes"--In other words, not only were "ghost members" added, but all the Mormons who died, had their names removed from the records, or were excommunicated were not subtracted from the total.

Let me reemphasize that: During 1999 and 1975, not only were "ghost members" added, but if the church is to be believed, not one single Mormon anywhere on earth died during either 1999 or 1975. Or, put another way, the church is still counting, in its grand membership total, every single Mormon who died during 1999 and 1975.

THAT is why the "ghost members" problem is much, much bigger than we would assume at first glance.

[_MormonMendacity]

Ok, I see it. Point taken. But these are small blips in the overall numbers and just two years. Hardly a common practice.

You're interpreting them as merely "small blips" due to the numerically small amount of ghost members compared to the grand total.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but the blips are actually much greater than they appear at first glance. You see, those two years are the only instances where we know for a fact that ghost member were added. This is because, in order for those ghost members to even be detected, there wasn't any loss of members due to "natural causes"--In other words, not only were "ghost members" added, but all the Mormons who died, had their names removed from the records, or were excommunicated were not subtracted from the total.

Let me reemphasize that: During 1999 and 1975, not only were "ghost members" added, but if the church is to be believed, not one single Mormon anywhere on earth died during either 1999 or 1975. Or, put another way, the church is still counting, in its grand membership total, every single Mormon who died during 1999 and 1975.

THAT is why the "ghost members" problem is much, much bigger than we would assume at first glance.

The bigger problem is that the leadership refuses to engage independent auditors to verify...well, anything.

They do not want the actual numbers exposed or their numbers called into question.

[_Jason Bourne]

Oh my bad. Brother Bourne is making favorable assumptions about the accounting practices of the bean counters in SLC all from his myopic view of membership accounting in his local ward office.

Greeeaaaatttt.

Blathering is typical when one has nothing but hot air in their claims.

[_Who Knows]

The bigger problem is that the leadership refuses to engage independent auditors to verify...well, anything.

I can't believe that there's not a law that large 'non-profit' organizations do not have to be externally audited. It's mind-boggling to me.

[_MormonMendacity]

The bigger problem is that the leadership refuses to engage independent auditors to verify...well, anything.

I can't believe that there's not a law that large 'non-profit' organizations do not have to be externally audited. It's mind-boggling to me.

That's the rich, powerful and unpersecuted religions successfully misinterpreting the 1st Amendment.