The cost of doing business

[_Mister Scratch]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

What money is it, maklelan?

Jersey Girl

I've already explained. The church has several different businesses that it runs, and they were started through donations that had nothing \to do with tithing. They are very, very strict about what is done with sacred funds, which is why they restrict what missionaries can and can not spend their money on. The higher up you go the more restrictions.

I hereby submit a call for documentation. I want to see a legit source that backs up these baloney claims.

[_asbestosman]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

Since the books are closed, you cannot rule out the possibility that tithing money in some form was used.

They said it was not. I've been a part of the church financial sytem, and I know how fiercely they protect whatever moneys are considered sacred. That's a bold accusation to make, and without any evidence too.

I didn't make any "accusation." You are the one without any concrete evidence. And the Church refuses to provide any. Thus, you cannot rule out the possibility that the mall was paid for using tithing money.

Yeah, and we can't rule out the possibility that the Flying Spaghettie Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Dragon in our garages, and the Celestial Teapot all pitched in to fund the project.

[_harmony]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

Since the books are closed, you cannot rule out the possibility that tithing money in some form was used.

They said it was not. I've been a part of the church financial sytem, and I know how fiercely they protect whatever moneys are considered sacred. That's a bold accusation to make, and without any evidence too.

I didn't make any "accusation." You are the one without any concrete evidence. And the Church refuses to provide any. Thus, you cannot rule out the possibility that the mall was paid for using tithing money.

Yeah, and we can't rule out the possibility that the Flying Spaghettie Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Dragon in our garages, and the Celestial Teapot all pitched in to fund the project.

You cannot win this argument, asbestosman. The church leaves itself open to these kinds of allegations every time they spend money inappropriately, and make no accounting. Buying a shopping mall has nothing-- nothing -- to do with perfecting the Saints, redeeming the dead, or spreading the gospel. With no accounting for where the funds came from, or for what they're spent on, there's bound to be some raised eyebrows.

Open the damn books. Put an end to this madness. The church closed the books in the first place, to cover fiscal malfeasance. It looks very much like we need to open them again, for the same reason.

[_asbestosman]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

Since the books are closed, you cannot rule out the possibility that tithing money in some form was used.

They said it was not. I've been a part of the church financial sytem, and I know how fiercely they protect whatever moneys are considered sacred. That's a bold accusation to make, and without any evidence too.

I didn't make any "accusation." You are the one without any concrete evidence. And the Church refuses to provide any. Thus, you cannot rule out the possibility that the mall was paid for using tithing money.

Yeah, and we can't rule out the possibility that the Flying Spaghettie Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Dragon in our garages, and the Celestial Teapot all pitched in to fund the project.

You cannot win this argument, asbestosman. The church leaves itself open to these kinds of allegations every time they spend money inappropriately, and make no accounting. Buying a shopping mall has nothing-- nothing -- to do with perfecting the Saints, redeeming the dead, or spreading the gospel. With no accounting for where the funds came from, or for what they're spent on, there's bound to be some raised eyebrows.

Open the damn books. Put an end to this madness. The church closed the books in the first place, to cover fiscal malfeasance. It looks very much like we need to open them again, for the same reason.

I don't object to raised eyebrows. I object to sloppy arguments. I'm not trying to win this argument.

[_Mercury]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

What money is it, maklelan?

Jersey Girl

I've already explained. The church has several different businesses that it runs, and they were started through donations that had nothing \to do with tithing. They are very, very strict about what is done with sacred funds, which is why they restrict what missionaries can and can not spend their money on. The higher up you go the more restrictions.

This statement goes directly against their behavior. I find it funny that they can play the stock market with tithing funds but have "sacred rules" on the sending of such money.

And why does a church need businesses anyway? Where do the profits go? There are too man y questions for this operation to be above board.

Play the stock market? That's a new one to me. What are you talking about, vegas?

In Mormon Inc. the authors discuss the business end of the church. Part of this are investments made by the church in the Stock market.

[_Mercury]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

What money is it, maklelan?

Jersey Girl

I've already explained. The church has several different businesses that it runs, and they were started through donations that had nothing \to do with tithing. They are very, very strict about what is done with sacred funds, which is why they restrict what missionaries can and can not spend their money on. The higher up you go the more restrictions.

I hereby submit a call for documentation. I want to see a legit source that backs up these baloney claims.

Maklelan will object to this because he himself uses this tactic incorrectly to disarm others. When it actually is needed to prove the laughable claims he makes he can't deliver.

Lets watch him squirm.

[_moksha]

With a closed book system, how would anybody know - even the official spokesman - what pots of money these huge expenditures are coming from.

[_guy sajer]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

Since the books are closed, you cannot rule out the possibility that tithing money in some form was used.

They said it was not. I've been a part of the church financial sytem, and I know how fiercely they protect whatever moneys are considered sacred. That's a bold accusation to make, and without any evidence too.

Unfortunatley, the standard for financial transparency is not anecdotal statements by persons "in the know." Can you imagine a system of financial transparency based on anecdotal statements operating in the "real world?" Surely even you can see why such a system cannot work. What is it that is unique about the Mormon Church that makes it exempt from such ethical standards? (And yes, other churches do report on their finances, including, for example, the Catholic Church at the diocese level and the Seventh Day Adventist, among others.)

I'm sorry, but your word simply isn't good enough. I don't know you from sh**, and I have no reason to take your word for it. Besides, there is no possible way you can have enough information to give a representative perspective of the LDS Church's stewardship of the millions of dollars in donations entrusted to it.

Moreover, transparency is a means toward a more important end: accountabilty. Without the fomer, there cannot be the latter. Your anecdotal witness is insufficient for the rest of us to hold Mormon leaders accountable for the money we entrust to them. (Yes, I still give money, or my wife does, but it comes out of our common pot.)

[_Mercury]

Can you imagine a system of financial transparency based on anecdotal statements operating in the "real world?"

Sure can. Enron, MCI Worldcom, etc

[_Mister Scratch]

It's not tithing money, so what do you care?

Since the books are closed, you cannot rule out the possibility that tithing money in some form was used.

They said it was not. I've been a part of the church financial sytem, and I know how fiercely they protect whatever moneys are considered sacred. That's a bold accusation to make, and without any evidence too.

I didn't make any "accusation." You are the one without any concrete evidence. And the Church refuses to provide any. Thus, you cannot rule out the possibility that the mall was paid for using tithing money.

Yeah, and we can't rule out the possibility that the Flying Spaghettie Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Dragon in our garages, and the Celestial Teapot all pitched in to fund the project.

You cannot win this argument, asbestosman. The church leaves itself open to these kinds of allegations every time they spend money inappropriately, and make no accounting. Buying a shopping mall has nothing-- nothing -- to do with perfecting the Saints, redeeming the dead, or spreading the gospel. With no accounting for where the funds came from, or for what they're spent on, there's bound to be some raised eyebrows.

Open the damn books. Put an end to this madness. The church closed the books in the first place, to cover fiscal malfeasance. It looks very much like we need to open them again, for the same reason.

I don't object to raised eyebrows. I object to sloppy arguments. I'm not trying to win this argument.

The only sloppy argumentation here is your elementary school "spaghettie [sic] monster" stuff. Which, I might add, is yet another FAIR/MAD cliché. Don't you have any original material of your own, asbestosman?