For Coggins Concerning the Role of Women: Probably Off Topic

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins, first of all, I love this:

Quote:
We could first state "wife" and then proceed to define "wife" as:

...an indispensible earthly and eternal companion in life, love, child rearing, spritual, psychological, and emotional maturity, and in the bringing to pass of the immortality and eternal life of man, that is, men and woman are inextricably linked to each other in the process of exaltation.

I think that this could serve as an appropriate definition for both wives and husbands.


Well, that's precisely what is intended.


I think, however, that you may be doing what Harmony is doing in reverse. You are lumping all feminist women into one very radical category.

I consider myself a feminist....not a radical, bra-burning, radical 60's feminist, but a feminist in the more "normal" sense. I believe in equal pay for equal work. I think that jobs involving intellect such as doctors, lawyers, professors, therapists, etc. can be done equally well by both men and women, provided they receive the proper education. I believe that it is just as important for a woman to complete her college education as it is for a man to complete his. I teach in the State College system, and love my job, but honestly love being a Mom more. My girls are teen-agers, so, until recently, working outside the home was not that big of a deal. I was usually home from work about the same time they were. However, we recently had a "suprise" baby boy. :) He is a welcome addition to the family, but he has drastically changed my priorities. As much as I enjoy my job, it kills me to have to take him to daycare every day. I'm in the process of getting a home business...a music studio...off the ground so that I can stay home with him, and still have a solid income. This isn't some scheme my husband hatched to "bring me home". This was my idea...my concept.


I agree with you here, and I think eveything I've said, at least I hope this is the case, has been an implicit admission of as much. I'm well aware, and always have been of a "moderate" feminism that grew up, and most certainly preceded, the 'radical" feminism that came to prominence in the late sixties. In future, whenever I say "feminism" I mean specifically "radical", leftist, feminism of the bra burning, sixties (well, it really reached ideological maturity in the seventies) Murphy Brown sort. I don't agree that I'm doing what Harmony is doing in reverse. She does lump all conservatives/Mormons into a very cut and dried, ideologically predigested mold. I'm well aware of the differences between the moderate and radical, cultural Marxist strains of feminism, as well as first, second, and third wave feminism etc. If I gave the impression of something else by using the general word "feminism", then that was a mistake.

I think one problem here is that radical feminism is really the only going concern in the popular media and culture and long ago displaced the moderates, at least in the public sphere and institutions of society (much like, after the death of Martin Luther King, the Black Power movement displaced the integrationists and became the "civil righs movement" and defined it ideologically). I think for many conservatives today, feminism is identical to "radical" feminism. This of course, isn't accruate. Interestingly, a female member of my branch has set me straight on this more then once. She always makes sure, in any discussion, that I preface the term 'feminism" with "radical" if I'm speaking of the Kim Gandy or Elenor Smeal kind.

Your point is well taken.


I agree with you that men and women are equal but different. We do have inherent strengths and weaknesses which balance each other out, and compliment each other. Women tend to be more effective communicators because we are more in tune with being able to read body language, facial expressions, etc. Men tend to be stronger physically, and have an inherent need and talent to protect, while women tend to have an inherent need to nurture.

Notice I listed these as tendancies. People are individuals, and there are always exceptions to the rule. However, in general terms, this is how I see things.

I think that men who use the priesthood for good can be strong, positive role models, and great husbands. If the priesthood is abused by a sense of wielding power over the wife, then the relationship is bound for disaster. There should be no condescention...no superiority complex. Husband and wife should be partners.


Interesting what you mention about woman's superior reading of body language. I've always been very good at that; always observing ideosyncracies of movement, positioning of arms, posture etc. Some of that is natural I think, but I really became intersted in it twenty or so years ago when I was heavily into the study of psychology and psychotherapy. As I said, some woman's and men's inherant traits are overlapping, and they can show up quite strongly in either case on occasion (few would argue about Jean Kirkpatrick's intellectual and logical reasoning abilities).

Loran
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Interesting what you mention about woman's superior reading of body language. I've always been very good at that; always observing ideosyncracies of movement, positioning of arms, posture etc. Some of that is natural I think, but I really became intested in it twenty or so years ago when I was heavily into the study of psychology and psychotherapy. As I said, some woman's and men's inherant traits are overlapping, and they can show up quite strongly in either case on occasion (few would argue about Jean Kirkpatrick's intellectual and logical reasoning abilities).

Loran


That's interesting....your perception of body language. That's why I was careful to say that these are tendancies. I also noticed that you stated more men are strong analytically. I have a Master's degree in Computer Science, and am very "left brained" in that sense. I teach Web Programming(HTML, Java, Pearl), and am the only female in my department...so I suppose we have both proven that there are exceptions to the rule. LOL ;)

P.S...Before you say it, I know...Talk about ADD...I did my undergraduate work in Music (hence the music studio home-business) and my graduate work in Computer Science. Go figure. LOL
_twinkie
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Post by _twinkie »

I'm a woman so I'll bite...

In your opinion) What is the role of women? To make sure the men are doing what they are supposed to be doing
In your experience) Do you see any difference between LDS women and a non-LDS women? LDS women seem more reserved to me. They are less open- less willing to share what they really feel about things. My non-LDS girl friends just let it all hang out. I know exactly what they are thinking and what their opinions are. I know that I shock and amuse my LDS "friends."

(In your opinion) Do you think men are superior to women? When it comes to opening jars, definitely. When it comes to knowing where to find miscellaneous items in the house, no way. I definitely know where more things are than my husband does.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

twinkie wrote:I'm a woman so I'll bite...

In your opinion) What is the role of women? To make sure the men are doing what they are supposed to be doing
In your experience) Do you see any difference between LDS women and a non-LDS women? LDS women seem more reserved to me. They are less open- less willing to share what they really feel about things. My non-LDS girl friends just let it all hang out. I know exactly what they are thinking and what their opinions are. I know that I shock and amuse my LDS "friends."

(In your opinion) Do you think men are superior to women? When it comes to opening jars, definitely. When it comes to knowing where to find miscellaneous items in the house, no way. I definitely know where more things are than my husband does.


I like you, Twinkie! We could definitely hang out. We would shock and dismay the straight-laced LDS women in one fell swoop! LOL
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Coggins7 wrote:If not, well then, we'll just let off a littel steam and laugh at the whole situtation.


In other words, your behavior of apologetic masturbation serves a purpose for you just as my ribbing and to-the-point reasoning let my steam off.

Simmilar situations, just mine has reasoning.
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And lost in space...and meaning
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Whatever is to be said about "the role of women," in the context of the LDS Church, it is, ultimately, impossible to claim that women are genuinely the "equals" of men. It will be this way as long as women are denied the priesthood.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Another perfect example of Scratch's narrow, pinched, socialistic view of the world. Equality, for him means everywhere and always equality of condition. Sameness.

Conceptually, woman can and are the equals of men, whether or not they hold the Priesthood. The Priesthood doesn't make men better or superior to woman, any more than Albert Einstein's mathematical abilities make him superior to Gene Kelly. Kelly could out dance Einstien (and most other human beings), at any time.

Men and woman are all equal under the laws of God and his gospel, and the only differences here are differences in division of labor and abilities. Those difference are ordained by God to be as they are, as are the roles, and the various emphasis and deemphasis of psychological and biological attributes that allow men and woman to flow naturally into those somewhat different roles and feel genreally comfortable within them.

Further, since woman can and have performed all of the same miracles and through faith can act as channels for the same powers and gifts of the Spirit as men, in what sense do woman need to have the Priesthood?

You know what is really interesting about these kinds of discussions is that people like Scratch don't really want to be in the Lord's church, they want to be in their own. The very essence of the vast majority of his beliefs about the church, and especially his more pointed criticisms, logically imply that he does not believe the church to be a divine institution, but only a human one. In this case then, the church can be bullied, cajoled, and pressured into altering doctrines, practices, ordinances, and standards at will.

What our "Mormon" Scratch is really trying to do then, is, figuratively speaking, erect a golden calf with his face on it in Temple Square.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

The fact that the highest exaltation consists of a husband and wife walking hand in hand through the gate of the Celestial Kingdom speaks volumes as to the relationship a man and a woman should have together.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Exactly Gaz, but for people like Scratch, all of life is a power struggle between groups for political, or personal "equality". Equality, within an ideological framework such as this, is the pivitol, utlimate principle to which every other will ultimately be sacrificed.

The first principle sacrificed to the great god equality, is liberty. The second, is quality.

One of the great apparant paradoxes of mortality and existence, and probably one that will not be resolved here, is that the concepts of quality and equalty are in constant tension. You cannot have one without the diminution of the other except in the astract sense of equality under an overarching set of guiding principles and rules, i.e., equality under the law. As soon a equality becomes literal: as soon as it becomes a matter of equvalence between qualities in the phenominal world, then other qualities must be sacrificed for the attainment of that end. If total equality is the goal, the total abolition of freedom is required.

What Scratch is really worried about is not the Priesthood per se, which, as a divine investiture of authority in mortals to act in the name of God, as understood by LDS, he probably has no actual belief in. Rather, Scratch sees woman not having the Preisthood as a political struggle for power within the church between men and woman, with the Priesthood as the prize to be sought in a private and public culture war between LDS men and LDS woman as groups contending for eccesiastical "turf" within the church. This is a reproduction in the church of the radical feminimst project of cultural, legal, and political power struggling in the secular world.
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Gazelam wrote:The fact that the highest exaltation consists of a husband and wife walking hand in hand through the gate of the Celestial Kingdom speaks volumes as to the relationship a man and a woman should have together.


That would work but in the next breath, the chauvenism makes itself apparent when speaking of the attending queen at the ruling male Gods side.

Mormonism is for the male ego. It is supported by a systemic dysfunctional relationship between the ego-pumped male and the brainwashed female.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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