Gazelam wrote:The question I wanted you to answer was regarding the resurrection. How do you see a physical resurrection as a metaphor? In what way is it abstract? Can you give me a simple commentary on Luke 24:36-53?
It marks a passage from a material to an abstract state.
When was the last time one of the Brethren performed a miracle? Or actually communed with Christ? And where is the evidence?
I don't know, I don't follow the church news. I doubt they would widely publicise it if they did. Perhaps Rollo knows, he seems to follow the church news.
Ah, I see. You want to dictate how a person should pray. Don't you think that this is a matter best left between the individual and the Lord?
I am simply shareing with you the way to pray that I have found to be most effective. On my mission people were able to receive an answer to Moronis promise by praying this way as opposed to saying a silent quick prayer as they fell to sleep in their beds. Try it and see.
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I'm afraid we disagree here, Gaz. I do not find your method effective, and in fact think that the "high pressure" missionary technique of encouraging certain kinds of praying is actually borderline deceptive.
Mister Scratch wrote:You are not even a decent, useful human being "in general terms".
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Loran is trying to pretend like he's got an education again. How predictable.
True intellectuals don't let their buttons be pushed. [Before you tear into me: I don't claim to be an intellectual so I'm willing to let my buttons be pushed.]
True intellectuals don't let their buttons be pushed.
That has nothing to do with intellectualism. Intellectuals have emotional buttons like all people. That is part of being human. They are no more or less capable of suppressing their emotions than the village idiot. Those who control their emotions better than others learn to do so by practice - this camp includes both intellectuals and idiots.
I consider DCP an intellectual and he certainly has a button (Islam).
Gazelam wrote:I have no doubt that the Spirit can testify of truths in other religions. A Christian preacher declareing that Christ is the Son of God and that we should follow his example should expect that the Spirit would testify of those words. But I would also ask, would you expect their baptism to also draw the sealing power of the Holy Ghost? I say No.
The Authority to act in Gods name exists solely in this church and in no other. The Melchizedek priesthood and its sealing power are not found in any other place. Other churchs do great work, and lay a foundation in true belief, but the fulness of the gospel is found only in one place, and that is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I've been to one LDS service, and it was a real snoozer. There don't appear to be any preachers like Martyn Lloyd-Jones in the LDS church. http://www.mlj.org.uk/index.html Click on audio to get the weekly broadcast of part of one of his sermons.
And you base this sweeping conclusion on ONE LDS service? Wow.
ajax18 wrote:Do you espouse a particular religion Scratch?
Could you tell us your beliefs on why we are here on earth, where are we going when we die, what are the consequences of different actions.
That's sort of the point... The answers aren't fully clear, and I'm okay with that.
Perhaps these questions cannot be answered scientifically but I definitely feel drawn to searching for an answer to them. I guess I don't cope as well not knowing these things as you seem to. I'm not sure I could function that well changing these basic beliefs every year or two, hence I don't until I get overwhelming evidence to the contrary. While I'm not sure of what I believe in a scientific sense, I kind of have to be sure in some sense to maintain sanity. How do you get past this?
There is no "getting past" it. It just is. Don't fight it; accept it.
But do you espouse a particular religion. Are you LDS, ex LDS, something else. Your posts are mostly very critical of the LDS Church but I have never been able to pin down where you are at. My guess based on your posts is ex LDS or very disaffected LDS.
ajax18 wrote:Do you espouse a particular religion Scratch?
Could you tell us your beliefs on why we are here on earth, where are we going when we die, what are the consequences of different actions.
That's sort of the point... The answers aren't fully clear, and I'm okay with that.
Perhaps these questions cannot be answered scientifically but I definitely feel drawn to searching for an answer to them. I guess I don't cope as well not knowing these things as you seem to. I'm not sure I could function that well changing these basic beliefs every year or two, hence I don't until I get overwhelming evidence to the contrary. While I'm not sure of what I believe in a scientific sense, I kind of have to be sure in some sense to maintain sanity. How do you get past this?
There is no "getting past" it. It just is. Don't fight it; accept it.
But do you espouse a particular religion. Are you LDS, ex LDS, something else. Your posts are mostly very critical of the LDS Church but I have never been able to pin down where you are at. My guess based on your posts is ex LDS or very disaffected LDS.
Well, that's the point. I refuse to say. Some of the more hardcore TBMs insist that people say where they stand in crystal clear terms, so that they can make ad hominem judgments about people. So, I have always been very careful to avoid answering the questions you mention above. Whatever anyone thinks about whether I "espouse a particular religion" will always have to be an assumption, I'm afraid.
ajax18 wrote:Do you espouse a particular religion Scratch?
Could you tell us your beliefs on why we are here on earth, where are we going when we die, what are the consequences of different actions.
That's sort of the point... The answers aren't fully clear, and I'm okay with that.
Perhaps these questions cannot be answered scientifically but I definitely feel drawn to searching for an answer to them. I guess I don't cope as well not knowing these things as you seem to. I'm not sure I could function that well changing these basic beliefs every year or two, hence I don't until I get overwhelming evidence to the contrary. While I'm not sure of what I believe in a scientific sense, I kind of have to be sure in some sense to maintain sanity. How do you get past this?
There is no "getting past" it. It just is. Don't fight it; accept it.
But do you espouse a particular religion. Are you LDS, ex LDS, something else. Your posts are mostly very critical of the LDS Church but I have never been able to pin down where you are at. My guess based on your posts is ex LDS or very disaffected LDS.
Well, that's the point. I refuse to say. Some of the more hardcore TBMs insist that people say where they stand in crystal clear terms, so that they can make ad hominem judgments about people. So, I have always been very careful to avoid answering the questions you mention above. Whatever anyone thinks about whether I "espouse a particular religion" will always have to be an assumption, I'm afraid.
Fair enough. And it is probably a more prudent. That way you avoid becoming a damned hypocrite like me.
Gazelam wrote: The question I wanted you to answer was regarding the resurrection. How do you see a physical resurrection as a metaphor? In what way is it abstract? Can you give me a simple commentary on Luke 24:36-53?
Scratch:
It marks a passage from a material to an abstract state.
Scratch, how is a physical body that is touched by the disciples and then sits and eats a meal with them non material and abstract? Answer the question. Resurrection is not theoretical, its a tangible physical thing. Take a stand on a doctrine and show oyu believe in something more than the joy of criticiseing others.
I'm afraid we disagree here, Gaz. I do not find your method effective, and in fact think that the "high pressure" missionary technique of encouraging certain kinds of praying is actually borderline deceptive.
I was there Scratch. The woman said she got no answer to her prayer and did not wish to be baptised. We asked her how she prayed and it was a head on the pillow falling to slepp quick prayer. We asked her to do a proper prayer, and she begged us to baptise her because she had received a confirmation by the Holy Ghost that the church was true. She had been in the presence of God because she had offered up a proper prayer. This was not the only time this happened. It happened to me as well.
Because I received a revelation for myself as Peter did (Matt. 16:13-19). I know independent of all others that Jesus is the Christ and that I am in his one true church. If you would follow Peters example, you would know as well and wouldent have to spend your time spinning your words and you would be able to stand on solid ground and apply yourself better.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Gazelam wrote: The question I wanted you to answer was regarding the resurrection. How do you see a physical resurrection as a metaphor? In what way is it abstract? Can you give me a simple commentary on Luke 24:36-53?
Scratch:
It marks a passage from a material to an abstract state.
Scratch, how is a physical body that is touched by the disciples and then sits and eats a meal with them non material and abstract? Answer the question. Resurrection is not theoretical, its a tangible physical thing. Take a stand on a doctrine and show oyu believe in something more than the joy of criticiseing others.
It is unclear whether or not we are to read that scriptural text literally. If we are, then I would say that the resurrected Christ and his disciples had entered an "abstracted", "metaphysical" state for the interim.
I'm afraid we disagree here, Gaz. I do not find your method effective, and in fact think that the "high pressure" missionary technique of encouraging certain kinds of praying is actually borderline deceptive.
I was there Scratch. The woman said she got no answer to her prayer and did not wish to be baptised. We asked her how she prayed and it was a head on the pillow falling to slepp quick prayer. We asked her to do a proper prayer, and she begged us to baptise her because she had received a confirmation by the Holy Ghost that the church was true. She had been in the presence of God because she had offered up a proper prayer. This was not the only time this happened. It happened to me as well.
Your description of the scenario with the woman only proves my point: you pressured her into praying in your very specific way. Hence, a "high pressure" technique.
Because I received a revelation for myself as Peter did (Matt. 16:13-19). I know independent of all others that Jesus is the Christ and that I am in his one true church. If you would follow Peters example, you would know as well and wouldent have to spend your time spinning your words and you would be able to stand on solid ground and apply yourself better.
Believe me Gaz, the ground I walk on is every bit as solid as yours. The big difference is that I never have to lapse into knuckle-chewing and bawling whenever I hear criticism of the Church.
It is unclear whether or not we are to read that scriptural text literally. If we are, then I would say that the resurrected Christ and his disciples had entered an "abstracted", "metaphysical" state for the interim.
Please expand on what your saying here. Offer more than a sentance and back it up with scripture or authoritative quotes.
Your description of the scenario with the woman only proves my point: you pressured her into praying in your very specific way. Hence, a "high pressure" technique.
We visited with her, and she stated that she hadn't gotten an answer. We asked how she prayed and told us about the laying in bed thing. We instructed her on how to pray properly and left. The next day she found us in the street walking to an appointment and told us that she had received an answer and wanted to be baptised. Sound high pressure to you?
Believe me Gaz, the ground I walk on is every bit as solid as yours. The big difference is that I never have to lapse into knuckle-chewing and bawling whenever I hear criticism of the Church.
If you walk on solid groud, please show evidence for this by makeing a declaration of your faith on any doctrinal topic. So far you have not done so.
Do I chew my knuckles and cry?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato