Do you believe God intervenes & answers prayers?

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_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

Roger Morrison wrote:In answer to the Thread's question: NO!!! I tried for "Huge" here, but am not sure it will work????

In stating this i'm not declaring there is no "God". Something keeps our world in orbit blah, blah... Thank "God"!

However, IMSCO the primitive, ancient, theological "God" concept, serves no "practical" purpose. That others choose to think/believe otherwise is understandable and indeed may be quite purposeful for them... So be it.

I think a better question might be, "can people coming together in a united spirit change things?" To which i would say, "YES!"

I suggest this is what Harmony was involved in. She just happened to be the one of XX# that found the boy. Had there been no effort to do so, would the boy have been found??? An unknown...

This is an excellent topic! Keep it going. Warm regards, Roger


I agree. Had Harmony been a wicked person, the outcome of the story would have been tragic. The parents of the lost boy were fortunate that she was a good person, and they believe their prayers were answered. I can't say if God prompted Harmony to find the boy, or if she happened by chance to be in that place right then. Had Harmony decided to ignore the boy, or not take interest in what was happening in the neighborhood, she could have driven on by.

In reality when we pray for help, we are praying that God will prompt another to serve and help us.

I believe God gives us promptings to see if we will act on them, but for the most part is not able to intervene with out affecting our free agency. He wants to see if we will help and serve each other (even though He has the power to intervene) and if the outcome is wickedness, He will let it be. If it's kindness and love, we are learning to become like Him If we do not follow those promptings out of fear, slothfullness, or whatever, we have failed to act as a disciple of Christ. I believe God is testing us to see if we will turn a blind eye to starvation, crime, tragedy, or any challenge to serve another.

This belief does not square with the scriptures though, as we have many examples of God intervening to save some of the righteous, thereby changing the outcome of anothers agency to commit evil , and this I do not undertand. He has done this with Prophets, and apparently people who claim these miracles of God's intervention in saving a child, or whomever, yet the person next to them was not spared. It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't believe that when we die it was "our time to go" but for those that do I guess the belief in God picking and choosing whom He helps would be easier to understand.
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

twinkie wrote:I've prayed for and found my car keys. Now, I am not saying that it was any kind of miracle. I think that praying allowed me to take a minute to calm down and get in the proper frame of mind to remember where I left them (in the refrigerator).

Why God doesn't say answer every prayer affirmatively, I don't know. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people.



One time I had lost my keys for almost a month. It was to the point that I finally decided to pray. A thought became clear to me of a spot I hadn't checked yet and sure enough they were there. It was actually a spot I had thought of myself a month before, but brushed it off as impossible. (an open space deep under the couch cushions I wasn't aware existed) I was so grateful my prayers were answered, and I don't won't to belittle the things I have felt in the past as help from God, but I honestly don't feel comfortable asking for these things anymore.


Maybe the act of prayer only calmed my mind and helped me to focus better. At the same time, I feel ungrateful discounting an answer to a prayer as coincidence. So many people have the "lost keys" story to validate God answers prayers, but you don't hear many stories of answered prayers with missing children. The majority end up dead, or tortured and raped while alive.

I still pray but now I ask for how I can be an instrument to Him to help those in need and to give me the health and strength to serve them. This makes more sense to me than asking for "blessings." It seems pointless to ask for protection from another, as that would interfere with "agency" if God is unable to intervene anyway. It didn't help save the families on United 93 as it plunged to the ground, and they actually had a chance to take control of the plane. It was a thought provoking moment in the movie when they showed the Americans praying at the same time the terrorists were.

The responses to my question have been helpful and it's given me some thoughts to ponder.....
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

The Dude wrote:
asbestosman wrote:As to why God would not intervene to prevent the Holocaust, I don't think anyone has a satifactory answer. I just know that the wrong answer would be that God doesn't care (or doesn't exist).


The ones who don't have a satisfactory answer are the ones who believe in a God who cares and intervenes. The rest of us do have a satisfactory answer.


Maybe it's an answer that satisfies the intellect but it doesn't satisfy the basic existential questions that we want answers to so badly but science cannot provide. Maybe you've been able to rise above this, but I don't find atheism very satisfying either. Does atheism fit the evidence best? Sure it does, but I wouldn't call it satisfying, at least not to me.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

twinkie wrote:I've prayed for and found my car keys.

When I was taking the Gospel Essentials class, I was surprised to find that nearly everyone in the class had used prayer to find their car keys. Up to that point, I had regarded prayer as mostly a means to give thanks to God.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

moksha wrote:What about the idea that after a certain point, God developed a prime directive for non-intervention? I know Kurt Vonnegut had put forth the idea fifty years ago for a Church of God the Totally Indifferent. That always seemed too much for me, why would God be totally indifferent to his creation? Where is the sense of ownership there? It seems more likely to me that God cares but in a hands off sort of way. Perhaps he would like us to try to recreate a heaven on earth scenario, in which we try to create a pleasant living environment for everyone.


A good question Mok That is the Deist approach, made popular by some early American philosphers... "God" as the 'watch-maker' who turned the "watch" over to humans to keep it running. As good an answer as any???

Mok, i think you represent a large # of folks who see/understand "God" in quasi, if not very, human terms as to tendencies and qualities omnied to the max. This seems to have been the base of most theistical imagining. And with which theologians have structured the Judeo-Christian "God"; better or worse since Moses.

I respectfully suggest when Jesus told the Pharasees, "...you don't know "God"..." he could well have been speaking to most, if not all who profess, pretend or portend to "...know "God"...".

I do not personally "know" "God" as other fundamentalists, believers, agnostics or even atheists might. However, i attempt a reverence for all the good-stuff attributed to "God". I awake every morning in awe of, and in gratitude for, my mortal existance. I don't close my eyes, or fold my hands, to communicate with the forces "I" see/understand as THE natural power that sustains ALL life on this planet, in this Universe. With eyes-wide-open i gaze at the wonders unfolding by the moment to those who seek, ask and knock to receive the fruits of faith of their works...

Some might ask what about the bad-stuff of life? I can only suggest, "that's life." Some times caused by the workings of the Universe. Other times caused by the ignorance and/or the indifference of our human race. The latter we have more control over than the former. And as we mature beyond our narcissistic state our social conscience is becoming more empathetic to the sufferings of others. As Jesus instructed...

IF we seriously consider what Jesus suggested, as it is written, "...the Kingdom of God is within you..." (Luke 17:21) we might conclude differently than when we think there is a gulf between "God" and humanity that has here-to-fore attempted to be bridged by priest-crafts...

I respectfully suggest, throughout time, the Scientific Humanitarian Community has been closer to, and worked with "God" far more productively than has the Religious Community. I further suggest, the gap between those two Communities is narrowing as Religious Sects recognize their wrongs, the Sciences accept responsible Stewardship and the populace accept their responsibility to 'police' world happenings by the principles Jesus expounded in the Sermon on the Mount and the beatitudes.

That Christianism has, to this point, pretended to do that can only be attributed to their illconceived "God" concept, and misconstrued understanding of Jesus and his purpose... As i see the journey of humankind... "YOU," Jesus said, "are the light of the world! Let it shine, that ALL might see and give glory to "GOD" that knows no favourites and provides unconditionally to all who understand, or stumble upon the Secret that is Non-Secret: Charity never faileth!"

YOU/WE are the hands of "God"!" Let it be so... Warm regards, Roger
_Gazelam
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From the new Priesthood manual: Spencer w. Kimball

Post by _Gazelam »

If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective.

Is there not wisdom in his giving us trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to harden our muscles, sorrows to try our souls? Are we not exposed to temptations to test our strength, sickness that we might learn patience, death that we might be immortalized and glorified?

If all the sick for whom we pray were healed, if all the righteous were protected and the wicked destroyed, the whole program of the Father would be annulled and the basic principle of the gospel, free agency, would be ended. No man would have to live by faith.

If joy and peace and rewards were instantaneously given the doer of good, there could be no evil—all would do good but not because of the rightness of doing good. There would be no test of strength, no development of character, no growth of powers, no free agency, only Satanic controls.

Should all prayers be immediately answered according to our selfish desires and our limited understanding, then there would be little or no suffering, sorrow, disappointment, or even death, and if these were not, there would also be no joy, success, resurrection, nor eternal life and godhood.

“For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things … righteousness … wickedness … holiness … misery … good … bad. …” (2 Nephi 2:11.)

Being human, we would expel from our lives physical pain and mental anguish and assure ourselves of continual ease and comfort, but if we were to close the doors upon sorrow and distress, we might be excluding our greatest friends and benefactors. Suffering can make saints of people as they learn patience, long-suffering, and self-mastery. …

I love the verse of “How Firm a Foundation”—

When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of sorrow shall not thee o’erflow
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
[See Hymns, no. 85]


And Elder James E. Talmage wrote: “No pang that is suffered by man or woman upon the earth will be without its compensating effect … if it be met with patience.”

On the other hand, these things can crush us with their mighty impact if we yield to weakness, complaining, and criticism.

“No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education that we come here to acquire and which will make us more like our Father and Mother in heaven. …” (Orson F. Whitney)

There are people who are bitter as they watch loved ones suffer agonies and interminable pain and physical torture. Some would charge the Lord with unkindness, indifference, and injustice. We are so incompetent to judge! …

The power of the priesthood is limitless but God has wisely placed upon each of us certain limitations. I may develop priesthood power as I perfect my life, yet I am grateful that even through the priesthood I cannot heal all the sick. I might heal people who should die. I might relieve people of suffering who should suffer. I fear I would frustrate the purposes of God.

Had I limitless power, and yet limited vision and understanding, I might have saved Abinadi from the flames of fire when he was burned at the stake, and in doing so I might have irreparably damaged him. He died a martyr and went to a martyr’s reward—exaltation.

I would likely have protected Paul against his woes if my power were boundless. I would surely have healed his “thorn in the flesh.” [2 Corinthians 12:7.] And in doing so I might have foiled the Lord’s program. Thrice he offered prayers, asking the Lord to remove the “thorn” from him, but the Lord did not so answer his prayers [see 2 Corinthians 12:7–10]. Paul many times could have lost himself if he had been eloquent, well, handsome, and free from the things that made him humble. …

I fear that had I been in Carthage Jail on June 27, 1844, I might have deflected the bullets that pierced the body of the Prophet and the Patriarch. I might have saved them from the sufferings and agony, but lost to them the martyr’s death and reward. I am glad I did not have to make that decision.

With such uncontrolled power, I surely would have felt to protect Christ from the agony in Gethsemane, the insults, the thorny crown, the indignities in the court, the physical injuries. I would have administered to his wounds and healed them, giving him cooling water instead of vinegar. I might have saved him from suffering and death, and lost to the world his atoning sacrifice.

I would not dare to take the responsibility of bringing back to life my loved ones. Christ himself acknowledged the difference between his will and the Father’s when he prayed that the cup of suffering be taken from him; yet he added, “Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done.” [Luke 22:42.]7
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_twinkie
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Post by _twinkie »

I wanted to add that I DID give my thanks after finding them!
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Gaz, thank you for pasting this PH lesson material. I find it most disturbing, inacurate in its definitions of mortality, extremely misleading, and to some it could be emotionally and mentally injurious as it distorts reality. SWKimball, whom i respected, said:
If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective.
RM added UL)

ULd: Only if one does not understand mortality. Or has trouble accepting reality. That some express life in such negative terms does little to encourage a Christ like like attitude of faith in "God's" Universal 'mechanics'. Such pessimism is more the sentiment of "Darkness" than "Light"...

Is there not wisdom in his giving us trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to harden our muscles, sorrows to try our souls? Are we not exposed to temptations to test our strength, sickness that we might learn patience, death that we might be immortalized and glorified? (Seems such a pitiful, primitive illadvised rationalism. That is presented by "Prophets" as factual makes it all the more virulent.)

If all the sick for whom we pray were healed, if all the righteous were protected and the wicked destroyed, the whole program of the Father would be annulled and the basic principle of the gospel, free agency, would be ended. No man would have to live by faith. (Is such nullification of faith-in-pray to be taken seriously? Is this statement really the truth, "god doesn't answer prayers or heal. Medical science does. When it works, then god is on-side!")






Being human, we would expel from our lives physical pain and mental anguish and assure ourselves of continual ease and comfort, but if we were to close the doors upon sorrow and distress, we might be excluding our greatest friends and benefactors. Suffering can make saints of people as they learn patience, long-suffering, and self-mastery. … (Seems the pursuit of "comfort" is what coaxed us from the cave? Who would forego medication and prosthesis? Will there be no voices raised against this nonsense in PH classes? Will Mitt Romney swallow this psyche contamination too?)

I love the verse of “How Firm a Foundation”—

When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of sorrow shall not thee o’erflow
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.


If i recall, that old hymn, which is not an LDS exclusive, was written many generations ago, in a time when "God" was THE whimsical puppeteer.


(Talmage) “No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education that we come here to acquire and which will make us more like our Father and Mother in heaven. …” (Orson F. Whitney)

(Is this Jesus Doctrine or from Eastern Karma rationalizations? On the bed of a rapist? In the hold of a slave ship? In a Nazi gas chamber? The purpose of child-abuse/incest???? I see it too was penned some two centuries ago... Surely...???)

There are people who are bitter as they watch loved ones suffer agonies and interminable pain and physical torture. Some would charge the Lord with unkindness, indifference, and injustice. We are so incompetent to judge! … (And, i respectfully suggest to offer this "Lesson" as a guide-line-to-live-by.)

The power of the priesthood is limitless but God has wisely placed upon each of us certain limitations. I may develop priesthood power as I perfect my life, yet I am grateful that even through the priesthood I cannot heal all the sick. I might heal people who should die. I might relieve people of suffering who should suffer. I fear I would frustrate the purposes of God. (These thoughts are taken from an old out of print book on my shelf, back home. That such absurdities are presented as truths make me feel, not anger, but compassion for those in such senility as to be in a constant state of retrieval.)
Where is the Church Curriculum department? Are they deliberately attempting to sabotage LDSism?

Gaz, i'll go no further with this "experience". But, hey according to the "Lesson", this served a useful purpose. I hope it gives cause for thought around the world as it displays the retrogressive state of a church that i and my wife, devoted more than 50 year to. I encourage all who are exposed to these "Lessons," to pray-for/seek understanding of them, and act accordingly.

If they ring true, as other than being printed words that convey thought, but as words that when lived by will bring peace and strength, then abide them whole-heartedly. OTOH, if they do not bring a sense of well-being and faith in yourself to deal with life's reality by following the teachings of Jesus, then you're at a cross road.

"Be of good courage!" "God" never witholds blessings, (just obey the law); never curses, (you do that all by yourself); nor intervenes. You learn by experience to be wise, forgiving--including yourself--and compassionate. "Two New Commandments" Thanks again! Ya did da world a service, Bro! Warm regards, Roger
_Gazelam
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Roger

Post by _Gazelam »

Thanks for your commentary my friend. I thought for a moment that maybe your a little cranky on your snowbird vacation and maybe just ned to get home, but really the views you express are not that different than those you express in your book.

Pres. Kimball expresses in another part of the lesson that he really does not know why people go through some of the difficulties that they go through. I think its a mix. For the most part, we are left to ourselves. When we are baptised and keep our covenants we invite testing and trials upon ourselves, but some things just happen on their own.

Heres an excerpt from Truman Madsens book on Joseph Smith:

"When he asked for peace of soul in moments of great anguish, like us he did not always receive the Lord's full explanation. The demand that the Lord explain to us in detail why it is necessary for this or that - that demand takes us a step beyond genuine faith. If we are close enough to the Lord and if we have the assurance that we are filling our missions as appointed, it should not come as any great shock or suprise that we sometimes walk in affliction. That is the program. In a measure that is what we came to face and to endure in righteousness.

So Joseph was simply given assurance, the whisper of peace, the "Be still, Joseph, and know that I am God." Or again, the serenity that does not assure you anything by way of, Where am I? or, Where am I going? But only, "You're on track, murmer not - all will work out in the end."


This is an exampole of some of the answers the Prophet who began the dispensation of the fullness of times received! The sam eprophet who stood in the presence of the Father and the Son, who received instruction from angels! Sometimes his answers were just an emotion that told him all is well, stay the course. We can all take an example from this, that sometimes we just need to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost and stay the course.


Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_fubecabr
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Re: Roger

Post by _fubecabr »

The most important question anyone can ask is, why doesn't God heal amputees?

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

Prayer is superstition and God is imaginary.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI
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