Bill Maher's MAD brouhaha

[_Yoda]

See, guys? Jersey Girl and I just demonstrated that it is possible to agree and disagree amicably. ;)

Great discussion, Jersey Girl! I enjoyed it.

I wish I had seen the show. Unfortunately, we don't have HBO right now. When we did, I was a Bill Maher addict. LOL I love his show!

[_Yoda]

So...if a person is underinformed (or self corrected in the remainder of the broadcast) does that make them a bigot?

Jersey Girl

I would say "no".

[_Jersey Girl]

So...if a person is underinformed (or self corrected in the remainder of the broadcast) does that make them a bigot?

Jersey Girl

I would say "no".

Liz,

It looks like some of the MADites would disagree with that. Here is what they don't understand...when someone starts a thread like the Maher thread....and all they do is throw crap on Maher and call him a bigot...they make themselves and their church look like blatant yahoo's. What they should be doing (and yes, this is total judging on my part) is engaging in serious and informative discourse.

Informative, as in transmitting corrective information and educating (as in teaching) people.

Instead they go on for pages (apparently, it's too bloody boring and redundant for me to read at this point) with name calling and such.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

And before someone jumps on my post as name calling....notice I said they make themselves look like yahoos. I didn't actually call them yahoos. Eventually I might though!

Jersey Girl

[_Mister Scratch]

So...if a person is underinformed (or self corrected in the remainder of the broadcast) does that make them a bigot?

Jersey Girl

I would say "no".

Liz,

It looks like some of the MADites would disagree with that. Here is what they don't understand...when someone starts a thread like the Maher thread....and all they do is throw crap on Maher and call him a bigot...they make themselves and their church look like blatant yahoo's. What they should be doing (and yes, this is total judging on my part) is engaging in serious and informative discourse.

Informative, as in transmitting corrective information and educating (as in teaching) people.

Instead they go on for pages (apparently, it's too bloody boring and redundant for me to read at this point) with name calling and such.

Jersey Girl

What is truly classic is the fact that now that DCP is on "hiatus," they have to find somebody else who's willing to offer up the last word mere seconds before the thread is closed. Can you guess who their new "go-to guy" is? (Drum roll) Yep, you guessed it---it's Wade!

[_Yoda]

What is truly classic is the fact that now that DCP is on "hiatus," they have to find somebody else who's willing to offer up the last word mere seconds before the thread is closed. Can you guess who their new "go-to guy" is? (Drum roll) Yep, you guessed it---it's Wade!

Woo Hoo! Congrats, Wade!

We should have a party in his honor! :)

Wait...that may make the MAD'ites nervous. LOL

[_skippy the dead]

Thanks for pointing out this other reference, Jersey Girl. I'm going to pull a quote to make sure we're both looking at the same thing:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.

Take a look at the first section I bolded. It seems to me that the slavery Brigham Young is referring to here is not slavery in heaven, but the slavery which was existing during that particular time.

Also...take a look at the second bolded section. He is still being consistent about black people receiving the fullness of the blessings of the Priesthood, but it would happen after all of the descendents of Adam received their blessings.

I still think that Brigham Young was racist to a large degree...but I think this bigotry was a bi-product of the times. I'm not saying it was right. I'm just making an observation.

I don't, however, see anything here which indicates that Brigham Young actively taught that the only way a black person could enter heaven was as a servant. It looks like he was misquoted, or misunderstood.

Therefore, yes, I would have to respectfully disagree with your position on this one.

Brigham Young may not have been responsible for the actual quote, but my understanding is that Mark E. Peterson is:

If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.

This was from an address at BYU in 1954 (I watched the clip a little bit ago, but I thought Maher said this was a church teaching from 50 years ago, so maybe this is what he was referring to?). So yeah, they can go to heaven, but only as servants.

I'll have to say I was completely open-mouthed at the assertions by some in that thread that the LDS church was responsible for improving the lot of African-Americans (and even Africans worldwide!) by lifting the priesthood ban in 1978 (someone even posited that Martin Luther King Jr. had only a tangential effect on civil rights - the LDS church deserved more credit!).

The fact that the less-valiant-in-heaven, seed-of-Cain depiction of blacks is still represented and believed in the LDS church tells me that the church has not left its institutionalized racist past behind. I know that's what I was taught in seminary, and what I hear bandied about to this day. I could probably write pages on the damage I think this does in a hundred different ways, but suffice it to say that it's an area that needs much improvement in the church.

[_Jersey Girl]

Look Folks,

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful (for all you know I'm lying!) but Maher and Stephanopolous is the tip of the iceberg here. Word has it that O'Reilly (by the way I think he's an ass) has taken Missionary Discussions and you have to know it's not because he wants to become a member...Mormonism...is going to be plastered all over the place and definitely not painted in a good light.

Some people will claim persecution, some will blow it off, but seriously....if the only defense people can come up with is to call these folks "bigots" they better get a new schtick and get it fast.

Jersey Girl

[_Yoda]

So...if a person is underinformed (or self corrected in the remainder of the broadcast) does that make them a bigot?

Jersey Girl

I would say "no".

Liz,

It looks like some of the MADites would disagree with that. Here is what they don't understand...when someone starts a thread like the Maher thread....and all they do is throw crap on Maher and call him a bigot...they make themselves and their church look like blatant yahoo's. What they should be doing (and yes, this is total judging on my part) is engaging in serious and informative discourse.

Informative, as in transmitting corrective information and educating (as in teaching) people.

Instead they go on for pages (apparently, it's too bloody boring and redundant for me to read at this point) with name calling and such.

Jersey Girl

LOL I haven't even looked at the thread...or at MAD today, for that matter. Every time I read there, it gives me a headache. This board is much more fun! :)

[_Yoda]

Look Folks,

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful (for all you know I'm lying!) but Maher and Stephanopolous is the tip of the iceberg here. Word has it that O'Reilly (by the way I think he's an ass) has taken Missionary Discussions and you have to know it's not because he wants to become a member...Mormonism...is going to be plastered all over the place and definitely not painted in a good light.

Some people will claim persecution, some will blow it off, but seriously....if the only defense people can come up with is to call these folks "bigots" they better get a new schtick and get it fast.

Jersey Girl

Agreed!

And, yes, O'Reilly is an ass.

At least Rush Limbaugh is entertaining. ;)