"Presentism" is Dealt a Staggering Blow

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_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

This isn't even a nice try Slim. Joseph's "spiritual" marriages, as understood at the time, had no such connotations.


Get real. Joseph banged Fanny in the barn, and Oliver Cowdery reported it for posterity. We have no reason to doubt his integrity in this matter. Spiritual Schmiritual.
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

It is to that end that I present (pun intended) this evidence of presentism in this context. To wit....


Quote:
The cornerstone of statutory rape law has always been age of consent. While early English law set the age of consent at ten, the age was gradually raised over the years. In the nineteenth century, most states had set the age of consent at ten. A few states began by using twelve as the cutoff; Deleware set the age of consent at seven. Once a girl reached the age of consent, her protection from any aggressive advances by men were minimal. In most courts, it was, and still can be, extremely difficult to prove non-consent, without a showing a constant and physical resistance. During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries the Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) led a national lobbying effort to raise the age of consent. While WCTU's arguments were decidedly moralistic and conservative in tone and often embedded in efforts to help women avoid lives of prostitution, the organization was were successful in drawing national attention to the issue of rape. Most importantly, the WCTU focused on helping those who were unable to defend themselves. Melina McTigue, "Statutory Rape Law Reform in Nineteenth Century Maryland: An Analysis of Theory and Practical Change," (2002)


It is a fact that today in society and law, the standard age of consent is significantly higher than what it was in Joseph Smith' day. Therefore, to carp over the ages of some of the girls Joseph Smith was sealed to (in the context of the unproven claim that Joseph Smith actually had sex with them) is presentism.


BC, I don't see how you can use this law to argue the evidence of 'presentism'.

Have you considered the difference in 'de jure' and 'de facto' practice. I think you will find that the 'de facto' attitude to very much older men marrying very much younger girls, particularly if they are in positions of trust that would engender a family relationship (Emma and Joseph were both supposed to have looked on Fanny Alger as a daughter for instance). Then you are getting into very murky areas when it comes to 'victorian' sensibilities.

This issue 'plagued' Joseph then, as it does today.
I don't believe for one minute that 'presentism' is an issue here.


Really, it seems to me that "presentism" was developed by historians as a means to achieving greater scholarly objectivity, whereas Mopologists want to apply it to morality.


I don't quite get why they 'shouldn't' do this. Morality plays a part in past cultures, as defined by their religious, political, economic practices, amongst others.
How to judge the 'de facto' morality of a past culture is difficult to assess however.

Forgive me if I am reading it incorrectly.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The one lesson modern LDS apologists teach is that the influence of culture, personal upbringing, and personality is far stronger than the influence of the voice of God.

It's interesting how all apologetics eventually are forced to construct an explanation for why the world WITH whatever God they defend looks exactly like the world WITHOUT that God would look like. Hmm. Hmmm. I think that is what is called a "little clue".
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

BC---

I think you are missing the point, both of LL's OP, and my additional remarks. The point is that "presentism" works just fine as a historian's dictum, but it should not apply to moral judgment. We have absolutely every right to be appalled at the actions of our forebears, whether these include Attila the Hun, Joseph Smith, U.S slave owners, Puritans engaged in their witch hunts, or whatever else. While it would be unwise for a historian to sneer at these behaviors and cast judgment (for obvious reasons), there is really no good explanation (other than the fact that it makes for convenient apologetics) for how/why "presentism" can de-fang moral objections to Joseph Smith's behavior.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Get real. Joseph banged Fanny in the barn, and Oliver Cowdery reported it for posterity. We have no reason to doubt his integrity in this matter. Spiritual Schmiritual.


Cowdery, who had had a serious personal falling out with Joseph and had personally turned against him with some degree of rancor, made claims. He provided no direct evidence of the matter at that time, nor has anyone since.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Indeed, there are no primary or even secondary sources for any modern claims about their relationship. Alger herself left no historical record of the relationship. Cowdery's claims are his own hearsay, and not confirmed by any other primary historical sources. Believe it, or not. Your choice.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Mister Scratch wrote:BC---

I think you are missing the point, both of LL's OP, and my additional remarks. The point is that "presentism" works just fine as a historian's dictum, but it should not apply to moral judgment. We have absolutely every right to be appalled at the actions of our forebears, whether these include Attila the Hun, Joseph Smith, U.S slave owners, Puritans engaged in their witch hunts, or whatever else. While it would be unwise for a historian to sneer at these behaviors and cast judgment (for obvious reasons), there is really no good explanation (other than the fact that it makes for convenient apologetics) for how/why "presentism" can de-fang moral objections to Joseph Smith's behavior.


If morals are relative, and prevailing cultural mores constitute the contemporary standards of morality, why is the COJCOLDS consistently railing against the moral depravity of popular culture and urging its members to be "moral" by rejecting prevailing social mores?

I wonder how well it would fly in a temple recommend interview to justify pre-marital sex by citing society's contemporary mores regarding pre-maritial sex?

Apparently, God's standards are only applicable for juding present acts, not more distant past ones. Of course, religious icons have lower standards than the common folk regardless of the time or context.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

Coggins7 wrote:
Get real. Joseph banged Fanny in the barn, and Oliver Cowdery reported it for posterity. We have no reason to doubt his integrity in this matter. Spiritual Schmiritual.


Cowdery, who had had a serious personal falling out with Joseph and had personally turned against him with some degree of rancor, made claims. He provided no direct evidence of the matter at that time, nor has anyone since.


Something was going on. Cowdery called it an affair, Joseph claimed relationship/incident, but blanketed it under the protection of marital sanction. I'm just reading this chapter in Rough Stone, it's on page 323. I don't think Joseph would have had to blanket anything if he were simply baking chocolate chip cookies with Fanny.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Thanks for substantiating my point.
_SatanWasSetUp
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Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Apparently, God's standards are only applicable for juding present acts, not more distant past ones. Of course, religious icons have lower standards than the common folk regardless of the time or context.


Yep. Presentism only works to justify immoral acts of the past. Today's ledaers can apply their 1930s morality on today's members. Also, a better argument than presentism to justify Joseph Smith is your second point. Joseph Smith was a prophet, and as such god's rules don't apply to him. It's funny how that works for religious icons but it tends to be the modus operandi for them all. D&C 132 comes right out and says it. Since Joseph smith is god's prophet he can do whatever he wants and god will justify him, or something to that effect. D&C 132 is disturbing until you read it with the mindset that Joseph Smith just made it all up, then it's funny as hell.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
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