Is the Mormon Leadership in a hidden panic?

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_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

I can counter your anecdote with many more and better ones, including ones with deep knowledge of the church and its history. Do you expect when Joseph Smith was told that his name would be had for good and bad that the "bad" would be silly and unbelievable?


that's not a good counter, its an issue of perception. I find the objections to smiths behavior to be very pertinent and accurate. The man was a convicted criminal, serial sex offender, initiator of financial fraud and many other serious offenses.

These are not silly you mopologist twit and as for their believeability, there is more than adequate documentation that all of these ills took place in our corporeal universe (remember? the one EVERYONE lives in?).
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

VegasRefugee wrote:
I can counter your anecdote with many more and better ones, including ones with deep knowledge of the church and its history. Do you expect when Joseph Smith was told that his name would be had for good and bad that the "bad" would be silly and unbelievable?


that's not a good counter, its an issue of perception. I find the objections to smiths behavior to be very pertinent and accurate. The man was a convicted criminal, serial sex offender, initiator of financial fraud and many other serious offenses.

These are not silly you mopologist twit and as for their believeability, there is more than adequate documentation that all of these ills took place in our corporeal universe (remember? the one EVERYONE lives in?).


Maybe you missed the point. Anecdotes are meaningless. At least to the informed.

What is a "mopologist" and a "mopologist twit?"

rcrocket
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

rcrocket wrote:What is a "mopologist" and a "mopologist twit?"

rcrocket


You, and you again.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

rcrocket wrote:Maybe you missed the point. Anecdotes are meaningless. At least to the informed.


I got to the point made during the posts sparking my answers to your previous anecdotes.

Heres the problem twit. I view the world (that corporeal thing I referenced previously) through different eyes than you. Eyes not clouded by Anecdotal lore of gold plates and everything that comes with it, then further muddied with silly apologetic nonsense.

Life for you is about waiting for the giant space god Elohim returning to earth so as to deliver retribution and vengeance upon everyone who you and your fellow comrades saw s*** on the Mormons. Its joyful to you to bliss out every once in a while envisioning the millennium when those you view as righteous will be resurrected, us mere low undermench apostates being resurrected last with the murderers, Pontius Pilate and genetic biologists who are all liars about Book of Mormon DNA "evidence".

I am informed much better than you will ever be, as I am applying what I have learned while you are shying away.

Your a dry apostate, on the edge of leaving but so segregated into your own cubbyhole of Mormonism you can't escape. You know that there is clear evidence but you cannot see the forest through the trees. I am more informed because I deploy what I have learned to my advantage instead of swallowing it and hoping that it will go away.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

moksha wrote:I think the true dilemma posed by the internet is exposing members to its accurate history as opposed to legend. This can create a crisis of faith for some members. The official response has been to defend the legends and to minimize this crisis by calling it something like McCogDis or denying its existence. This does not solve the problem for those members who will continue to be surprised by this new information. I hope it never gets to the point where the official retort is that the internet is an instrument of Satan.


I doubt they'll call it the tool of Satan. There are too many Computer Scientists in Mormonism. Computer science is one of the few degrees that offers employment after only 4 years of college. I think the idea of calling the internet evil only really holds water with people over 65. Even a lot of them don't demonstrate a computer phobia that I've sometimes seen.

What they are concerned about with most as has been in the past is "indoctrinating the youth!" Our youth have been asked to give a talk on the following theme. "My testimony of the Savior and how personal prayer adn scripture study have helped me to Know Him, Love Him and desire to Serve Him with all of my mind, heart, and soul." Then the second is, "How family home evening, family prayer, and family scripture study have incereased my Faith in and love for Him. What if you didn't gain this testimony but your parents still force you to go to Church? What if you're family slacks on doing family scripture reading? Practically speaking, they basically have to make something up and get through the talk. I struggled to the point of getting myself sick trying to answer existential questions and understand whether I could really know something without knowing with my earthly senses. Of course I didn't have that figured out in time to give the talk. I simply had to make something up. What it came down to, was get up and say what they want to hear so your parents will be happy and the people in the Church will be happy. Then they'll say that they felt the spirit and you gave such a wonderful talk. If the truth is you still don't really understand what this mystical, "testimony" is or aren't really sure that's not acceptable and they don't want to hear it. If the truth about where you served your mission was that it was a dirty impoverished place or that you never baptized a single person, don't say this. Yes the spirit testifies of truth, but only truths that are faith promoting and positive and leave everybody with a warm fuzzy. It's nothing more than putting pressure on people to get them to say what you want them to say.

The Church must put an element of fear into those who grow up in it. Yet this is more difficult to do as what they say can now be shouted from the housetops with proof and not kept to the secret audiences as they once were. Hence they have to tone down their threats a little bit. The best source of Church members is still to mentally manipluate the youth and use family relationships to force them to stay in the Church.

Part of me thinks that the information has been out there forever, but there are those who listen to reason and those who choose not to do so. Maybe they have hope of religion and the afterlife. Maybe they don't want to upset family relations. These issues seem much bigger than simple information.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

VegasRefugee wrote:I am informed much better than you will ever be, as I am applying what I have learned while you are shying away.

Your a dry apostate, on the edge of leaving but so segregated into your own cubbyhole of Mormonism you can't escape. You know that there is clear evidence but you cannot see the forest through the trees. I am more informed because I deploy what I have learned to my advantage instead of swallowing it and hoping that it will go away.


I think the phrase is "you're a dry apostate," rather than the possessive's "your a dry apostate." But, I could be wrong, and your spelling and grammar issues are really a whole new way of expressing erudition.

In any event, I bow to your obvious intellect. Excuse me while I turn back to my Rammstein album.

rcrocket
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

ajax18 wrote:What they are concerned about with most as has been in the past is "indoctrinating the youth!" Our youth have been asked to give a talk on the following theme. "My testimony of the Savior and how personal prayer adn scripture study have helped me to Know Him, Love Him and desire to Serve Him with all of my mind, heart, and soul." Then the second is, "How family home evening, family prayer, and family scripture study have incereased my Faith in and love for Him. What if you didn't gain this testimony but your parents still force you to go to Church? What if you're family slacks on doing family scripture reading? Practically speaking, they basically have to make something up and get through the talk. I struggled to the point of getting myself sick trying to answer existential questions and understand whether I could really know something without knowing with my earthly senses. Of course I didn't have that figured out in time to give the talk. I simply had to make something up. What it came down to, was get up and say what they want to hear so your parents will be happy and the people in the Church will be happy. Then they'll say that they felt the spirit and you gave such a wonderful talk. If the truth is you still don't really understand what this mystical, "testimony" is or aren't really sure that's not acceptable and they don't want to hear it. If the truth about where you served your mission was that it was a dirty impoverished place or that you never baptized a single person, don't say this. Yes the spirit testifies of truth, but only truths that are faith promoting and positive and leave everybody with a warm fuzzy. It's nothing more than putting pressure on people to get them to say what you want them to say.

The Church must put an element of fear into those who grow up in it. Yet this is more difficult to do as what they say can now be shouted from the housetops with proof and not kept to the secret audiences as they once were. Hence they have to tone down their threats a little bit. The best source of Church members is still to mentally manipluate the youth and use family relationships to force them to stay in the Church.

Part of me thinks that the information has been out there forever, but there are those who listen to reason and those who choose not to do so. Maybe they have hope of religion and the afterlife. Maybe they don't want to upset family relations. These issues seem much bigger than simple information.


Crocket, instead of trading insults with Vegas, you would do better to apply yourself to posts such as this.
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

Jason Bourne wrote:
This good man then bore the testimony said that he had never read anything negative about the Church and never would, not in a book nor on the internet. He then bore his testimony.

I do not mock this man at all by the way. If he is happy and happy about how he approaches things I am happy for him. I have a good friend that is the same way. At times I wish I had stayed like them. And many, many active members are like this. And as long as there are the Church is not in crisis nor are leaders panicking.


I find the threat of the internet to be less dangerous than apologetic material. LDS can easily label anything they read on the internet as "anti Mormon" or lies, but when it comes from LDS endorsed books like "Rough Stone Rolling", they are forced to think about uncomfortable topics. Even if these members choose to remain in ignorance and not read anything but church publications, they are likely to encounter other LDS who have read these books.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon May 05, 2008 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

What's the turnover rate like within the LDS church?
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Fortigurn wrote:What's the turnover rate like within the LDS church?


Round 95 percent fall away within the first year
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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